Ever wish the crew would call the DR. on all his BS?

[Timo]

AFAIK, cats invariably pass the mirror test - the one where a mark is secretly painted on the forehead of the subject, and the subject is then allowed to look at the mirror. Cats realize the other cat there is an image of themselves, and get worried about the forehead mark. This even though optical imaging isn't their primary means of perceiving the world, and forms an incomplete "picture" at best.

That's pretty high up the sapience ladder, really. It's better than most human infants do, at any rate.

I'd say the average cat is more aware of its place in the world than the average human is, too. We get deluded by all sorts of imaginary things... But it's far from said that cats wouldn't have imagination as well. The proper test for that just hasn't been devised yet. (Their dreams, or behavior when dreaming, at least suggest vivid imagination!)

In the Trek universe, the Universal Translator should be of immense help in determining how sapient and sentient cats and other such linguistically challenged creatures really are...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[exodus]

Timo said:
AFAIK, cats invariably pass the mirror test - the one where a mark is secretly painted on the forehead of the subject, and the subject is then allowed to look at the mirror. Cats realize the other cat there is an image of themselves, and get worried about the forehead mark. This even though optical imaging isn't their primary means of perceiving the world, and forms an incomplete "picture" at best.

I personally have seen cats pass a mirror and hiss at themselves because they believe it's another cat.

 

[Red Ranger]

People,

I think you're all missing the point of the character of the Doctor. Yes, he was supposed to be an annoying tool -- pun intended.

His character is supposed to be a comment on prejudice, pure and simple. Many of the things people said about him not being an actual being are the same kinds of statements bigots have made about African-Americans, Latinos, and gays, just to mention three groups.

Besides, I liked that he was a prickly, pompous ass. Any being that has flaws like that is probably sentient. The irony being, of course, that as a doctor, he may have been technically competent, but he had a horrible bedside manner.

I also saw him as a commentary on the healthcare system: Good in terms of skills, but unable to take the human element into account in terms of patient care -- in the beginning, that is.

Red Ranger

 

[od0_ital]

Timo said:
... In the Trek universe, the Universal Translator should be of immense help in determining how sapient and sentient cats and other such linguistically challenged creatures really are...

Can't say I remember hearin' any words when Spot meow'ed to Data durin' TNG.

Animal sounds are not a language for the UT to work with.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Jack Bauer said:
I thought he was a wooden statue...

Why do I suddenly crave a cigar?

 

[Timo]

Animal sounds are not a language for the UT to work with.

Why not? The inflections in many types of animal sound obviously carry information just like human speech does, only no doubt in a more vague manner, devoid of grammar and limited in vocabulary. Tuning one's UT to do "Dog->English" shouldn't be different from having the machine perform "French->English" on a French child, simpleton or monomaniac... The results might be something like "Hunger hunger hunger feedme hunger feedmeNOW amazementatyourslowwits hunger", but that would still be interesting and informative to hear. Perhaps Data does that with Spot? No outsider would hear it, of course, because the UT isn't a loudspeaker: when there are multiple people from different language groups (say, our DS9 crew) listening to an alien speak, we don't hear overlapping translations in Cajun French, Irish, Farsi, Bajoran and Klingonaase. Instead, the UT either feeds into the ear of the listener, or more probably directly into his or her brain. (And not just into the auditory cortex, but the visual one as well, creating automatic lipsynch.)

In theory, if the UT is just an analytical machine, it should be able to decipher any signal with systematic content. The whispers of the wind would become language, even if the resulting words only described the aerodynamics of the situation.

In practice, the UT seems to be more of a psionic device. It seems it can somehow grasp the intent of the signal, rather than divine the meaning of the signal from its content. This might mean the device doesn't work at all on machines, and works fairly poorly on creatures with low-key mental processes. Which might explain why some Klingon words slip through every now and then.

No, seriously, forks, if the thing is psionic, it can probably be confused or keyed by states of emotion - which would nicely explain the occasionally untranslated curses and expressions of endearment or deference. Also, folks like Breen might be able to shield themselves telepathically (see TNG "The Price"), leaving only the content of the signal for the UT to decipher and thus making its work extremely (and realistically) difficult.

Incidentally, this would probably mean that the EMH couldn't be translated by somebody else's UT. His built-in language routines would be necessary to make himself understandable to a person whose UT didn't already contain the English language database. Doesn't mean the EMH wouldn't be sapient or sentient. It would just mean the poor Doc wouldn't be psionically readable.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[exodus]

Red Ranger said:
People,

I think you're all missing the point of the character of the Doctor. Yes, he was supposed to be an annoying tool -- pun intended.

His character is supposed to be a comment on prejudice, pure and simple. Many of the things people said about him not being an actual being are the same kinds of statements bigots have made about African-Americans, Latinos, and gays, just to mention three groups.

Besides, I liked that he was a prickly, pompous ass. Any being that has flaws like that is probably sentient. The irony being, of course, that as a doctor, he may have been technically competent, but he had a horrible bedside manner.

I also saw him as a commentary on the healthcare system: Good in terms of skills, but unable to take the human element into account in terms of patient care -- in the beginning, that is.

Red Ranger

I agree with you about him being an example of the effects of prejudice and a vision of the healthcare system. It gives much clarity to his action in "Flesh & Blood" and "Author, Author".

 

[SeanMcC]

YES!

Great actor, great character. But BOY were we saturated with the Doc in the later episodes.

 

[estrea]

exodus said:

Timo said:
Formally? One or both of two things:

a) That it can feel sensations. The lowest worms fit in this category.

b) That it is aware of self, as separated from the rest of the universe. I challenge you to show me a cat that doesn't meet this criterion.

In turn, when we state something is sapient, we are stating that he or she be member of the species Homo sapiens sapiens, obviously. The concept of sapience was invented to separate us from animals in the first place.

It's just too bad that the definition has no utility value.

Timo Saloniemi

Does a cat know it's a cat?

Is it aware of it's place in the world or is it just living on instinct?

...and too shake things up a bit: if the EMH is just a tool, is Odo just jello?

To reply to the cat comment: I have had numerous cats throughout my life and I would have to say it varies from cat to cat. Truly. Example: a family of skunks moved in under the storage area at the back of the house where I was living in Tennessee. My black and white tuxedo cat thought they were cats and meowed the "meow" meaning 'I want to go play.' One night, after the skunks had fed on the mulberries and retired for the night, I carried her to the trunk of the tree to let her smell. She discovered to her dismay they are not cats. Then whenever she was on the screened in porch with me and the skunks came out she would hiss.

This same cat, if I should have "Animal Planet" or "Funny Animal Videos" on will watch intently if another cat is on, but turn away if the picture changes to humans or dogs.

The one before her knew she was dying, but did not have the strength to 'crawl away' to be alone as is their habit. I could tell she was in great pain and suffering. I took her to the vet and was with her when she died telling her over and over how much I loved her and would miss her. Ethics binds me not to do that to a human, but I could not bear to see the agony in those big green eyes.

 

[BElannaParis]

i personally loved the Doc from about season 4 on. He was "merely a tool" in the first few seasons but he was confronted with human emotions and situations later on. for example, "Lifesigns" where he fell in love with the Vidian female doctor. and we all know he had feelings for Seven...boy I wish that relationship would've gone somewhere.

 

[I am not Spock]

Thrall said:

Mutara Nebula 1967 said:
Why did they put up with him for seven years? At the end of the day he really was just a tool...a projection from a machine and yet they indulged him in all his eccentric behavior. Frankly he could have used a good bitch slapping from time to time.

I agree. I hated Fraiser Crane in Space. I wish Paris would have reprogramed him to only sing AC/DC songs.

Ha ha! Your post made me laugh out loud. Especially the part about AC/DC songs!

I have always thought the Holodoc was like Frasier Crane in space (although he reminds me more of Niles than Frasier).

I like the EMH. He's easily got the most personality of any character on VOY. The reason he acts like a pompous tool sometimes is because he's been programmed with the personality of his creator, Lewis Zimmerman. (The real Zimmerman is also a complete arrogant ass when he appears in DS9 and VOY)

 

[P0sitr0nic]

The Doc is one of, if not my all time favorite Trek characters. So, no. I do not agree with calling him on "bs", let alone acknowledge any such "bs".