Equinox

[KaraBear]

We just finished watching Equinox. I hadn't seen it in a long time and it was honestly better than I remember. I actually really enjoyed Janeway being a badass in her persuit of Ransom.

I loved the scene in the mess hall when Max talks to B'Elanna and Tom gets all jealous


thoughts on the episode?

 

[R. Star]

"I'm going to execute you in the most brutal way possible, if you don't tell me where your captain is so I can hunt him down and kill him for betraying humanity's principles!"

That should be under irony in the dictionary.

 

[KaraBear]

"I'm going to execute you in the most brutal way possible, if you don't tell me where your captain is so I can hunt him down and kill him for betraying humanity's principles!"

That should be under irony in the dictionary.

I think that was far from the "most brutal way possible" I can think of a few more brutal ways

Do you think she really would have killed him?

and honestly, was that as bad as what Sisko did in his persuit of Eddington?

 

[R. Star]

Nah, Sisko gassed a whole planet. He should've been clapped in irons for that one. It's like a us officer gassing an Arabian village because he thinks there's a terrorist cell there.

Then again Sisko was never preachy about upholding humanity's principles in the same freaking episode he was going after his nemesis with a vendetta. Would Janeway have killed him? She was willing to kill that blueshirt if he didn't sell out his captain, so yes I thinks she would've. One of the few times Chakotay stands up to Janeway, but he picked a good time at least.

 

[KaraBear]

Nah, Sisko gassed a whole planet. He should've been clapped in irons for that one. It's like a us officer gassing an Arabian village because he thinks there's a terrorist cell there.

Then again Sisko was never preachy about upholding humanity's principles in the same freaking episode he was going after his nemesis with a vendetta. Would Janeway have killed him? She was willing to kill that blueshirt if he didn't sell out his captain, so yes I thinks she would've. One of the few times Chakotay stands up to Janeway, but he picked a good time at least.

yes he was, the whole time he was going after Eddington he was going on and on how he betrayed his uniform. He was just as preachy.

They both had the same vendetta, they were going after someone who betrayed Starfleet, the uniform, everything they stood for, and they both took it as a personal insult. They both went to extremes, made very questionable decisions, both had crewmembers questioning their behavior and actions

 

[R. Star]

Well betraying duty and betraying humanity's principles, which were the charges Sisko and Janeway were using respectively are different. Subtlety so at times, but nevertheless.

The funny thing about this episode is... flash back to Year of Hell when Janeway had the busted up ship. Look at her irrational behavior then, and compare her to Ransom. Are they so different? If the combustible space slug had been dropped into Janeway's lap, would she really not have used it?

 

[KaraBear]

Well betraying duty and betraying humanity's principles, which were the charges Sisko and Janeway were using respectively are different. Subtlety so at times, but nevertheless.

The funny thing about this episode is... flash back to Year of Hell when Janeway had the busted up ship. Look at her irrational behavior then, and compare her to Ransom. Are they so different? If the combustible space slug had been dropped into Janeway's lap, would she really not have used it?

either way, they were going after someone for a betrayal

having just watched it, she considered ransom betraying stafleet and the uniform, betraying humanity falls under that umbrella.

in year of hell, I highly doubt she would stoop so low as to kill innocent beings. They had similar oportunities and never took them. Several times janeway has offered to self destruct voyager to help someone, she was willing to sacrifice her own life on multiple occasions. No way she would butcher innocent beings for her own gain

 

[R. Star]

You don't call making a biological weapon to exterminate the Borg's enemies at cellular level in exchange for passage through Borg space butchering innocents for her own gain? All they did was have the audacity to defend themselves and included Voyager in that only after they tried tractoring, beaming away and boarding their ship and then were seen collaborating with the enemy that invaded them. Not that different from what Ransom faced. Killing beings to get his crew out of danger and closer to home.

I was talking about how Ransom justified the first space slug already being dead. I could easily see Janeway making the same justification... and it's a slippery slope once you engage upon it. What if the Krenim were still attacking and they needed two more to get past their space? Would she really say those two were worth the rest of her crew's lives? She twisted herself around so much with the Borg alliance, I could see her doing the same again very easily. She was already irrational in her decision making to the point of threatening to deactivate the Doctor, chewing out Chakotay for a birthday gift and thinking Voyager is conspiring against her.

As much as I poke fun at Janeway being horribly bipolar and inconsistent, nah I don't think she's evil. Heck I don't think Ransom was. I do think all three our our intrepid Starfleet captains(including Sisko since he was brought up earlier) have made dubious moral choices. Really if anyone we've talked about was evil it was that Max fellow. He seemed the most unrepentant about the whole thing.

 

[KaraBear]

You don't call making a biological weapon to exterminate the Borg's enemies at cellular level in exchange for passage through Borg space butchering innocents for her own gain? All they did was have the audacity to defend themselves and included Voyager in that only after they tried tractoring, beaming away and boarding their ship and then were seen collaborating with the enemy that invaded them. Not that different from what Ransom faced. Killing beings to get his crew out of danger and closer to home.

I was talking about how Ransom justified the first space slug already being dead. I could easily see Janeway making the same justification... and it's a slippery slope once you engage upon it. What if the Krenim were still attacking and they needed two more to get past their space? Would she really say those two were worth the rest of her crew's lives? She twisted herself around so much with the Borg alliance, I could see her doing the same again very easily. She was already irrational in her decision making to the point of threatening to deactivate the Doctor, chewing out Chakotay for a birthday gift and thinking Voyager is conspiring against her.

As much as I poke fun at Janeway being horribly bipolar and inconsistent, nah I don't think she's evil. Heck I don't think Ransom was. I do think all three our our intrepid Starfleet captains(including Sisko since he was brought up earlier) have made dubious moral choices. Really if anyone we've talked about was evil it was that Max fellow. He seemed the most unrepentant about the whole thing.

at the time 8472 were not "innocent" they were dangerous and the enemy. Voyager hailed 8472 but they were ignored. The only contact they had with them was Harry being attacked and Kes getting threatening mental messages. That is very different than the lifeforms that Ransom encountered

chewing out chakotay for a birthday gift? she was completely right! they had such low energy and resources the matter from that watch would be used on something much more important than a gift. She wasn't yelling, or mean about it, just very matter of fact. How would it appear to the crew, to someone who is wearing a burned and torn uniform, someone who has worn through their boots, who need some medicine, and janeway is wearing something as silly as that watch.

as I said before she had oportunities before but never took them. She would not even use the dead "slug"

yes, Max was really the worst here, just about everyone else had a change of heart at the end.

overall, I'm not saying that I think she was right in her persuit of Ransom, or her attempt to kill the cylon, whether she was bluffing or not, anymore than I think that Sisko was right in destroying those colonies. But I do find it interesting that Janeway gets all the criticsm here for doing the same thing Sisko did simply because it was Janeway and it was Voyager

 

[R. Star]

How was the 8472 supposed to respond? He wasn't even on his ship. Voyager hails it, gives them two seconds to reply, then tries tractoring it, beaming it away and boards it. Yeah if I came upon a group of strange looking people digging in my house, I'd give a hostile reaction too. Especially later on when they're helping my greatest enemy. Dangerous? Sure I'll give you that. Enemy? Only because Janeway picked sides because she needed something from the Borg. So yes, they were innocent before Janeway started annihilating them at the cellular level because she needed something. Which ironically enough the deal with the devil wasn't honored, surprise.

So you're saying Janeway wouldn't use that dead slug(if you have a better term let me know) to save her crew from a Krenim attack? She would think it's better to die that defile that dead person? I don't agree at all. We've seen several times she's guilt ridden over her choice to strand them there, and she'll twist herself in circles to justify questionable choices. As damaged as Equinox was, Ransom probably came to the same choice, with Max encouraging it all the way. They were under attack, under threat, and needed to get away. After that, I bet Ransom resisted using another one until they were under attack again, then did it again. Maybe by this time Max was synthesizing more behind his back... well it's done, is he not to use it. He can't fire Max since he's already short handed, so they're going home and Ransom seemed ready to take responsibility for the choices of his crew at that time. I don't think Janeway's immune to that sort of slippery slope at all. She killed Tuvix after all simply because she liked Neelix and Tuvok more. It's the same sort of situation where you're weighing two bads against each other. Though Janeway didn't have an evil redhsirt whispering poison into his ears. Just Neelix.

 

[Captain Kathryn]

Eh...in it's own right, I know deep inside that it is one of the good episodes.

However, I didn't like watching Janeway behave like that. I didn't like how her and Chakotay temporarily turned on one other. I think their behavior in this episode contradicts a lot of previous character development for both characters.

 

[KaraBear]

Eh...in it's own right, I know deep inside that it is one of the good episodes.

However, I didn't like watching Janeway behave like that. I didn't like how her and Chakotay temporarily turned on one other. I think their behavior in this episode contradicts a lot of previous character development for both characters.

I think that's one of the things that made it interesting, that it was such a contrast to her behavior

and it's not like Chakotay never questioned her orders or disagreed with her before

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yes it is.

If she was playing good cop, bad cop, Kathy carried it a little far by sending Chuckles to his room after he did exactly what she needed him to do to stop Noah from getting eaten.

Sisko was ordered to take Eddington to trial and/or jail.

Janeway agreed to feed Ransom to space dolphns.

This is how that is forgivable: She lied.

Kirk lied all the time.

Picard didn't.

Janeway is somewhere between those two.

(The meat in a Picard/Kirk sandwhich?)

Eddington spent a year and a half as Sisko's head of security playng him like a fiddle.

Ranson told terrible lies that couldn't stand on their own merit for a day and a half.

Sisko had a right to be angry becuase he was made to look like a fool.

Janeway, not so much, because she figured out Ransom's game without being pantsed.

However it was Janeway who was the one sharpening her knife to commit murder?

Quite odd, no?

 

[R. Star]

Space Dolphins... is that better than the space slugs term I was using?

 

[KaraBear]

Yes it is.

If she was playing good cop, bad cop, Kathy carried it a little far by sending Chuckles to his room after he did exactly what she needed him to do to stop Noah from getting eaten.

Sisko was ordered to take Eddington to trial and/or jail.

Janeway agreed to feed Ransom to space dolphns.

This is how that is forgivable: She lied.

Kirk lied all the time.

Picard didn't.

Janeway is somewhere between those two.

(The meat in a Picard/Kirk sandwhich?)

Eddington spent a year and a half as Sisko's head of security playng him like a fiddle.

Ranson told terrible lies that couldn't stand on their own merit for a day and a half.

Sisko had a right to be angry becuase he was made to look like a fool.

Janeway, not so much, because she figured out Ransom's game without being pantsed.

However it was Janeway who was the one sharpening her knife to commit murder?

Quite odd, no?

but she didn't commit any murder, sisko did on a large scale

 

[DonIago]

Sisko didn't commit murder. He gassed the planet, but IIRC there's no mention that the gas would be lethal, and the Maquis were able to leave the planet in any case.

Honestly, sometimes it seems like people deliberately distort the events of the episode just to serve their argument.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Unless you're talking about the animals and plants, or "starting" the Dominion War, no he didn't... But those are shitty frontier worlds which no one wants which is why civilians were allowed to farm on them like it's still the 18th century... And Sisko felt at ease poisoning the biosphere, even those its a slap in the face of the conservation laws we figured out from TNG Home Soil, but then that's where we learnt that the Federation only colonizes inert dead worlds incapable of ever supporting life, so what ever "life" was on that planet after terraformization, if you go back 80 years was put into a box in a factory on Earth and shipped there in a Star Ship.

Ben gave fair warning. Sure it seemed like minutes, but any Maquis that didn't have access to a ship and retained the ability to bug out at a moments notice was already a dead man during those Brutal times when death from the sky was an all but daily certainty.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Sisko didn't commit murder. He gassed the planet, but IIRC there's no mention that the gas would be lethal, and the Maquis were able to leave the planet in any case.

Honestly, sometimes it seems like people deliberately distort the events of the episode just to serve their argument.

It is most definitely mentioned that the gas is lethal to the inhabitants.
And the maquis had little realistic chance to leave the planet.

The one distorting events is you.

 

[DonIago]

Mmm...nice try, but it's specifically mentioned that the Cardassians and Maquis will be trading planets later in the episode and there's no mention of significant casualties.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Captain's log, supplemental. Resettlement efforts in the DMZ are underway. The Cardassian and Maquis colonists who were forced to abandon their homes will make new lives for themselves on the planets their counterparts evacuated. The balance in the region will be restored, though the situation remains far from stable.

Define lethal.

Considering Cardassians can still live on that planet consequence free, a build up could take months of years to approach lethal levels.

Cigarettes are lethal.

Alcohol is lethal.

Meth is lethal.

Yet there's no real hurry to stop some charming way of life before any one who dabble in these hobbies' body starts packing up.

It's like that old joke...

"Son if you don't stop masturbating, you'll go blind!"

"Mum, can I keep doing it until I need glasses?"