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Eminians are odd folk.

ScatmanRescueMe

Lieutenant Commander
I jusr rewatched 'Taste of...' again and I thought I'd mention something I always found funny.........

When Kirk & Spock blow up the disintegrator/suicide machines the Eminians go running around like crazy. It's like their attitude is...
"I came here to be killed-not INJURED!"

They said that they had a 'high degree of duty' too bad some folks didn't say 'go ahead shoot me--it's my duty to die now under any circumstances'

Then Kirk & Spock would have had a real decision.

Oh wait, they did make a real decision later----comtting planetary genocide to force a government to releases 7 hostages--bold move.
 
I jusr rewatched 'Taste of...' again and I thought I'd mention something I always found funny.........

When Kirk & Spock blow up the disintegrator/suicide machines the Eminians go running around like crazy. It's like their attitude is...
"I came here to be killed-not INJURED!"

They said that they had a 'high degree of duty' too bad some folks didn't say 'go ahead shoot me--it's my duty to die now under any circumstances'

Then Kirk & Spock would have had a real decision.

Oh wait, they did make a real decision later----comtting planetary genocide to force a government to releases 7 hostages--bold move.

Part of the problem is that there is probably some kind of audit trail mechanism in the disintegration chambers to report back to Vendikar that the disintegration deaths were indeed carried out. Otherwise, I could imagine Eminiar officials reporting back to Vendikar "Well, the chamber was out of commission, but trust us: we really did kill them. No, really. We did." So even if the people were killed, the deaths through the unoffical mechanism might still constitute a treaty breach.

Also, there's the notion that the whole "destroy the planet" thing was all just a bluff.
 
When Kirk & Spock blow up the disintegrator/suicide machines the Eminians go running around like crazy. It's like their attitude is...
"I came here to be killed-not INJURED!"

But that's exactly it. The point of the episode was that the Eminians had become desensitized to mass death because it was so clean and orderly and painless. It was so sanitized that it took all the horror out of it. But when confronted with the threat of actually having to suffer, it was a different matter. That's the dynamic that allowed Kirk to resolve the situation at the end: by destroying the war computers, depriving the Eminians of clean, orderly, painless war and restoring the spectre of overt violence and pain and blood and screaming, he scared the Eminians into ending the war. So it's perfectly consistent that they were afraid of the shooting and explosions when Kirk and Spock destroyed the disintegrator booths. If they'd been injured, it would've brought pain and suffering, and to them that was a very different proposition from the gentle, painless oblivion the booths offered.
 
I don't know...

Death is death. Your loved one is gone forever. It doesn't matter if they were slaughtered in a bloody mess or stepped into a "virtual elevator" and never returned. It's still a horror.

Think about it... these people are intelligent. They have a modern civilization. Heck, they even have a clean and distinctive fashion sense. Certainly the idea of just walking into a chamber to your death clashes with such a civilization. Otherwise, life would be meaningless... you wouldn't even bother to shower and shave, if you knew that the "death lottery" could easily take you away at any moment.

I'd rather that Gene had the place depicted as being in shambles... everything run down. Nobody clean. Most people just wandering about in a fog of misery. The only people who are even just the slightest bit together are Anon and his cabinet (because they would likely be protected anyway--they're running the show).

If these people were so detached from life, why would Anon even care if the treaty was violated?
 
Gary, the point is that everything WAS in shambles, just not superficially. They saved their 'culture' and the 'society' by adopting a cultural stalemate and 'relatively stable' order for hundreds of years. That status quo became all important to the council, in particular, because the sheer horror of a real war was far far worse to them. Death wasn't scary, so long as it was neat, orderly, and painless... but kick an Eminiar in the balls, and fear consumes them.

As for General Order 7, remember, Kirk had said that several vessels were disappearing in that area. We know that the Eminiars dealt with the USS Valiant by killing the crew and destroying the ship, but how many others in that sector did they just wipe out without a second thought? Both planets were certainly proving themselves as hostile to the Federation and anything/everything around.
 
I see your point, Vance... maybe if the Eminians were less human looking, I could accept that. Their appearance and behavior was too human in the episode for me to swallow the idea that people could just easily kill themselves like that. The human drive for survival is so strong. You either avoid whatever might cause you death or become detached to the point where death no longer concerns you. In the case of the latter, you become far more savage than the people we saw depicted in "A Taste of Armageddon"... and culture goes out the window.
 
I don't know...

Death is death. Your loved one is gone forever. It doesn't matter if they were slaughtered in a bloody mess or stepped into a "virtual elevator" and never returned. It's still a horror.

In our culture, yes. But different cultures raise their children with different sets of priorities. There are cultures that teach that an honorable death is something to be welcomed yet a dishonorable death is to be avoided at all costs. And different cultures can define those very differently. For instance, European cultures have often taught that dying or killing in battle is honorable, but that dying as a tortured prisoner or inflicting death and torture on a helpless captive is shameful; but many Native American cultures believed the exact opposite, that there was no honor in taking or losing life in open combat and that the honorable path (both for the killer and the victim) was to take prisoners and ritually torture them to death. So when the English settled in Algonquian territory and began getting into conflicts with the locals, the two sides found each other's approach to warfare and killing to be monstrously dishonorable and uncivilized.

If even humans can differ so profoundly in their values, we can never assume that our own personal beliefs about life and death would be universal.

In the Eminian case, the "honorable" kind of death, the one to be welcomed without fear, was a useful death -- one that served the greater good of Eminian society by preserving peace and order and ritual norms. But a death from unplanned violence, one that wasn't properly catalogued and carried out in a way that would preserve the Eminian obligation to Vendikarr, was a wasted death and therefore not the kind to be met stoically and willingly.


Think about it... these people are intelligent. They have a modern civilization. Heck, they even have a clean and distinctive fashion sense. Certainly the idea of just walking into a chamber to your death clashes with such a civilization.

Does it? Plenty of "modern" civilizations condition their citizens to be willing to march into certain death on the battlefield, or to work themselves to death in service to the state. Heck, more Americans die every year in traffic than died in the entire decade-plus of the Vietnam War, and yet we Americans step into our cars just as blithely and casually as the Eminians stepped into disintegrator booths. "Modern" civilizations are just as capable of lemming-like behavior as any other civilizations.

Otherwise, life would be meaningless... you wouldn't even bother to shower and shave, if you knew that the "death lottery" could easily take you away at any moment.

Same answer. Anyone could get killed in traffic or catch a fatal disease or choke on a chicken bone or otherwise kick the bucket unexpectedly, yet that doesn't keep us from going about our lives. And people who grow up in war zones, with even higher probabilities of death, do exactly the same: they go on with their lives. In college I knew a young woman who'd been a child in Vietnam during the war. I couldn't imagine what it must have been like to grow up surrounded by such horror and danger. But to her at the time, it was just an everyday thing and it didn't bother her much. People can adapt to anything, especially if it's all they've ever known.

The Eminians had been living like this for 500 years. None of them would have any experience with any other kind of life. So they wouldn't be living in despair or terror. It would just be normal, everyday life to them. They'd take the risk in stride the same way we take the risks of traffic accidents or choking on our food in stride.


If these people were so detached from life, why would Anon even care if the treaty was violated?

Because they weren't detached from life. They simply had a society that, like most Asian societies on Earth, valued the peace and order of the whole society over the well-being of the individual. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." Most Eminians lived in comfort and security, and the cost for that was that a very small percentage of them had to give up their lives. Statistically speaking, the odds that any given Eminian would be declared a war casualty were acceptably low -- a few hundred here or a few thousand there ensured that the rest of the billions of inhabitants would be safe and comfortable.

But if the treaty were broken and genuine, unregulated nuclear war broke out, then the death tolls would skyrocket -- millions or billions would die, and the survivors would suffer from radiation poisoning, famine, crippling injuries, etc. Everyone, not just a chosen few, would suffer, and the social order as a whole would collapse.
 
Well, in the interest of brevity, I'll just point out this: Your analogy of people dying in traffic, catching a disease, or choking on a chicken bone versus walking into a battlefield situation does not match. In the former, the expectation is not death... you're just going about your daily business and something befalls you. In the latter, the expectation is that you're probably going to be killed because you're in a high risk situation. That's a HUGE difference.

Yes, I can understand that one living in a war time situation with death surrounding you on all sides can make you numb to it. But in the case with the Eminians, there's no action being taken that risks death. You're just waiting for a phone call that says "you're it--report to disintegration chamber #5". Otherwise, life is perfectly normal--no sign of war, no sign of threats. The "death lottery" is invisible and strikes at will. You could argue that one may die at any time here in our time... BUT most of the time we have some influence over it, such as taking precautions (buy a safe car, look both ways, eat healthy, avoid dangerous neighborhoods, etc). The Eminians have no influence at all. Fate is completely out of their hands.

Oh, and long term exposure to the war time situation causes all kinds of psychological problems. Post traumatic stress disorder is one of them. The Eminians presented to us were calm and collected. Even Mea 3 (Barbara Babcock) seemed so "matter of fact" about going to the disintegration chamber, not a care in the world. Like going out for an errand. "Honey, I'm off to pick up the dry cleaning and then I've got to make a detour to disintegration chamber #5. It's been nice knowing you, sweetie!" And yet, her life was about to end. You'd think there would be at least some trepidation.
 
Yes, I can understand that one living in a war time situation with death surrounding you on all sides can make you numb to it. But in the case with the Eminians, there's no action being taken that risks death. You're just waiting for a phone call that says "you're it--report to disintegration chamber #5". Otherwise, life is perfectly normal--no sign of war, no sign of threats. The "death lottery" is invisible and strikes at will.

That's exactly what makes it easier to deal with. Human beings (or Eminian beings, in this case) are extremely good at denial. If a danger isn't immediately apparent to us, it makes it easy for us to pretend it doesn't exist and go about our daily business -- like the millions of Americans who casually get into their cars every day and never think about the fact that they could be killed at any moment by a drunk driver. That's just as random an event as getting the death-lottery call, and is comparable in probability, but we don't think about it most of the time, because it's something we can rationalize as remote enough not to worry about.

The Eminians have no influence at all. Fate is completely out of their hands.

Which would be worrisome to someone who's used to living in a different state of affairs. The Eminians have never known anything else. It's normal to them. They've grown up with it from infancy, and their culture has had 500 years to develop a belief system and worldview that lets them cope with the situation. People are very adaptable. Life always goes on, no matter what.

Even Mea 3 (Barbara Babcock) seemed so "matter of fact" about going to the disintegration chamber, not a care in the world. Like going out for an errand. "Honey, I'm off to pick up the dry cleaning and then I've got to make a detour to disintegration chamber #5. It's been nice knowing you, sweetie!" And yet, her life was about to end. You'd think there would be at least some trepidation.

She's been raised since childhood to react in exactly that way. Who knows? Maybe all Eminians are indoctrinated with a very strong belief in the afterlife. Maybe she didn't see it as the end of her existence but merely a transition to something better. I'd think that would be an inevitable societal adaptation under those conditions. With that kind of indoctrination, Eminians might actually look forward to being disintegrated.

Bottom line, you can never take it as a given that people in another culture will react the same way you would. There's immense diversity of beliefs and attitudes toward life and death even among Earth humans. As a rule, when it comes to human behavior and belief, the only thing you can rule out is uniformity.
 
I haven't read all of all the posts, due to time, but I will. They sound intelligent and civil. Nice.

So forgive if this is a repeat. Recall the neutron bomb. Destroys mainly biological and leaves the civilization standing. I teach history and float this concept to my students when we're dealing with saturation, incendiary, and atomic bombing of WWII. If an enemy would knuckle under due to one's use of such a weapon, is it more humane or prudent to leave the infrastructure and artwork intact? That's what makes the ep. so good, I guess, though of course the warring parties have just settled into an endless rut. That IS rather a different scenario than whether such a warfare, IFF limited, would be preferable.
 
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