Poll Dune (2021) Spoiler/Rating Thread

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by wayoung, Sep 1, 2021.

?

Rating?

  1. A+

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. A

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  3. A-

    1 vote(s)
    33.3%
  4. B+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. B

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. B-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. C+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. C

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  9. C-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. D+

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  11. D

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. D-

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  13. F

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. wayoung

    wayoung Commodore Commodore

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    Dune (2021) premieres September 3, 2021 at the Venice Film Festival.

    Next public showings are at the Toronto International Film Fest, beginning September 11, 2021.

    Wide release follows after that on a staggered schedule. Please check your local theatrical/streaming websites for availability.

    Please use this thread for spoiler discussion & rating.

    Rotten Tomatoes Page (Debut score 73%, currently 87% after Vienna, Paris, Toronto, and Montreal premieres):

    https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/dune_2021

    Metacritic Page (Debut score 78%, currently 75% after Vienna, Paris, Toronto, & Montreal premieres)

    https://www.metacritic.com/movie/dune-2020



    *mods, if I did this wrong, feel free to scrap it, I've never done one before, but after 5 years of the other thread waiting for this film, I kinda wanted to make the review thread :biggrin::beer:
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
  2. wayoung

    wayoung Commodore Commodore

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    So the first screenings are done. I guess we'll find out if any TrekBBS users are in Venice!
     
  3. wayoung

    wayoung Commodore Commodore

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    So, apparently there are no TrekBBS users in Venice or Paris who got in to see the film during showings in those cities. Let's find out about Toronto!
     
  4. wayoung

    wayoung Commodore Commodore

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    Well, seems we had no one from Toronto or Montreal who got tickets, but the film is open now in parts of Europe and I *know* we have members who were getting tickets for opening day!
     
  5. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    The bastards! :scream:

    I mean...

    Enjoy!

    ...you bastards.
     
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  6. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    I will in about 12.5 hours :p
     
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  7. wayoung

    wayoung Commodore Commodore

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  8. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    “Bless the Maker and His water. Bless the coming and going of Him. May His passage cleanse the world. May He keep the world for His people. ”

    It was a very long waited since the initial announcement, the analysis of every bit of information, the first promo pictures and finally the first full trailer and it was completely worth it!

    I have now seen a movie where so many elements come together to set the mood of a particular scene, showing us a scope both large and small, intimate and epic and i dare say it may have been the best movie i saw this year, even if i comment through the mindset of a fanboy who tries hard to remain objective.

    Most of us reading here know the story inside out and it is spoiler marked but i'll still keep some small moments and elements for myself for now - things i went "Wow.. that was cool", things that Villeneuve put in as a little artistic or cool fleurish, experience them for yourself first chance you can get.

    To get out the "negative" parts out first:

    In the first half the movie builds a fantastic world where music booms loudly in the foreground yet doesn't overpower the scene, in fact it enhances it and at several points i was shaking my head with a broad smile at the emotions and awe this produced, however once the Harkonnen/Sardaukar attack starts it becomes rather hectic and jumps from scene to scene, losing some of that epicness and mood setting with which the movie starts.

    Stellan Skaarsgard ( spelling?) as Baron Harkonnen and the Harkonnen in general fell flat for me, the movie never really shows us why the Harkonnen are so bad except by Atreides telling us and Rabban beheading some prisoners. Skaarsgard's Baron Harkonnen is just him in a fatsuit, floating around in some scenes and narrowly escaping the assassination attempt. We never see him as the political mind, the depraved and sadistic ruler, he's just.. there.

    That being said on to the good parts.

    As i said above in the first half of the movie Villeneuve, Zimmer, the actors, the cinematographer and everybody else craft something truly wonderful and awe inspiring. As everybody knows the movie opens up with a short monologue by Chani before we switch to Caladan and get to know the Atreides. It is here that the movie really shines as the music collaborates perfectly with each scene, enhancing it as a soundtrack should do. I can't put it correctly into words, this is something you have to experience and i urge everybody to see it at least once in the theater with a proper soundsystem ( my theater had top of the line equipment and the controller must have cranked up all settings to max and called it a day - i didn't need any special vibrating seats, the power of sound made the ground tremble at certain parts :lol:), you can always watch it a second or xth time on HBO to catch all the details but the first time should be special.

    The movie itself follows the book quite closely, some minor scenes have been cut if i remember correctly but it's no big deal or even ruining the movie ( especially the Liet Kynes non controversy, the actress was very good and did her job quite well).

    Chalamet delivers a very good performance as the main character but he's of course held back by the character at this point in the story, doubting himself and slowly discovering there is much more for him to come than he ever thought. The scene where he has a prescient vision of the coming Jihad and his desperation that a holy war has started under the banner of the Atreides kills him inside and Chalamet knocks this important scene out of the park.

    Elements i really liked

    - characters often switch into other languages ( subtitled) and those feel like living languages, it sounds brilliant

    - the Sardaukar get a short introduction scene and boy do the come off scary as hell, especially their language is terrifying to hear

    - the friendship between Duncan and Paul is just so fantastic, we have this huge Swordmaster who simply loves his protegé and you instantly know he'd die for him

    - Duncan's final scene.. too soon ( but awesome to see) :wah::wah:

    - the set and visual design is pure brilliance, building real sets as often as possible really paid off

    - the desert with all the dunes ( pun not intended) is simply breathtaking

    - Sandworms are scary as fuck!


    Watch this movie as soon as possible, grab everybody to go with you, this movie definitely needs a proper part 2 to at least finish off the main story!
     
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  9. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Did the Fenrings and the Arrakeen conservatory (garden room) get dropped? I hear the Shadout Mapes is in it though. Is her role significant?

    How does Villeneuve avoid the inner voice trope that Lynch used? Is the acting strong enough to convey what characters are feeling inside without resorting to it?

    What indications do we get that isolated ethnic groups such as the Fremen have been primed by the Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva to expect a saviour? Is their program to create the Kiswatz Haderach (Shortening of the Way) mentioned and, if so, how is it explained? Is genetic memory mentioned at all?
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  10. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    No Fenrings in this movie but we do get to see Liets' lab and plants she cultivated for the Arrakis ecology project. She touches on these plans in a short scene.

    No inner monologue - Chalamet is a very good actor and does a very good job portraying Pauls feelings ( opinions may vary of course)

    Prior to the departure from Caladan anf after Pauls' Gom Jabbar Test ( awesome scene btw) Mohiam and Jessica have a heated conversation where Mohiam chides Jessica for birthing a son and endangering the Kwisatz Haderach project. In passing she mentions that the Bene Gesserit did what they could do on Arrakis for Jessica, i.e. the Missionaria Protectiva have planted the Lisan al Gaib mythology there and it's touched upon several times in the movie, especially by the Fremen when they start encountering Paul.

    Genetic Memory is not mentioned.

    The Kwisatz Haderach is only explained by Jessica to Paul ( once he discovers this himself) as someone who has absolute control of mind, the movie doesn't go much deeper into the concept but i guess this is saved for the second movie, where the concept is explored more fully as Paul drinks from the Water of Life. Paul's dreams ( which are his visions of the future) and prescience start to get stronger once he arrives on Arrakis and comes into direct contact with the Spice, which triggers his latent abilities in a more direct way ( and nearly kills him as it happens when they are rescuing the harvester crew and the Sandworm is nearly on top of them).
     
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  11. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No f***ing telepathy or weirding modules I hope. I believe those were additions by Lynch. Apparently, Dino De Laurentiis also had a lot of "creative" input, which is probably why the 1984 movie ended up as a "white saviour" story. I don't know which of those two misunderstood the book the most. If Frank Herbert tried to steer them, it doesn't really show. His health wasn't good - he died in '86 - so perhaps he didn't feel inclined to interfere. In any case, whether good or bad - the movie would likely increase book sales.

    I'll try to attend a matinee screening of this new movie when not too many people are in the cinema.
     
  12. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    No weirding modules or telepathy ( thank god).
     
  13. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I didn’t read all of it because of spoilers but where exactly does the movie end?
     
  14. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Paul defeats Jamis and the Fremen take Jessica and Paul on the way to Sietch Tabr.
     
  15. Asbo Zaprudder

    Asbo Zaprudder Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So I expect the next part will have Jessica (and thus Alia) taking the water of life near the beginning. I can't really predict the remainder of the movie's structure though. Will the death of Paul and Chani's infant son Leto be included, I wonder? That wasn't in the Lynch movie as far as I recall. Too shocking?
     
  16. thribs

    thribs Vice Admiral Admiral

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    So it’s similar to the miniseries with where part 1 ends
     
  17. Midquest

    Midquest Captain Captain

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    @FPAlpha, thanks for weighing in. I have to wait a while to see it, so it's nice to hear these comments. :beer:

    If you don't mind my asking, I've seen a lot of reviews, even otherwise positive ones, that critique the film's hero/savior narrative. And I've seen a smaller but still substantial number that praise the film for critiquing saviors and colonialism. Can you speak to how people might be arriving at such different understandings?

    Also, I'm really interested in the film's environmental themes. Does the film make environment a theme? Or is it a more minor piece?
     
  18. FPAlpha

    FPAlpha Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    Your first question is more of a general theme or issue with the novel itself. Simply coming from the movie i'd say it is not true.

    Leto realizes that in order to properly rule Arrakis he has to be allied with the Fremen, mind you allied - not the ruler of the Fremen but an ally. He recognizes the right of the Fremen to be their own masters and he needs them if he is able to bring order to Arrakis Atreides style ( the Harkonnen of course are the typical representatives of the opposing philosophy).

    The movie has an interesting scene in that regard, when Duncan brings Stilgar to the meeting with Leto ( the infamous spitting on the floor/desk scene), which Villeneuve expands a bit ( don't remember exactly what is being said in the book).
    Stilgar is impressed with Leto's stance, which is why he spits as a sign of respect but he also makes it very clear that the Fremen will tolerate the Atreides mining the spice as long as they immediately return behind the Shield Wall and not venture deeper into the desert ( Leto agrees to this).

    This doesn't strike me as the typical white man saves savage indigenous people story. The entire topic is a difficult one and i can see how people critique it for a hero saviour narrative but i never got the feeling that the Fremen needed saving at all, when in reality they've been kicking Harkonnen ass whenever they felt like it ( there is a nice scene where see them doing this).

    Even though the Bene Gesserit planted the Lisan al Gaib mythology within the Fremen and they wonder if Paul would be it they still wouldn't think twice about killing him when they meet near the end of the movie and take his water, it is only Jessicas quick thinking and combat skills that convince them otherwise ( and Paul's defeat of Jamis).
    So both of them have to earn their place and protection, it is not given to them.

    The environmental theme is touched upon in 2 scenes. We see Paul wandering around the palace where encounters a man watering Date trees, that need water of 5 men per tree, in total the water for 100 men. Paul offers to have the trees removed to save the water but the Fremen rejects it as he sees it as the future of Dune.

    The second is after the Harkonnen attack, when Jessica and Paul get picked up by Liet and seek refuge in an old imperial ecology station, where Liet was conducting ecological experiments. She claims that Arrakis should have been planted and sort of terraformed to be more hospitable but then the Spice was found and that plan was abandoned by the Imperium ( but not by the Fremen).
     
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  19. Midquest

    Midquest Captain Captain

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    Oh, thanks for the in-depth response! It sounds like they're doing the legwork to set up a nuanced story come Part Two, if it happens. I'm honestly impressed by what they've kept, so far.

    I'm delighted that this concept made it from the novel to the screen.
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Herbert's original material didn't really offer much for establishing the Harkonnen as horribly evil. Lynch inserted that with the gonzo-gore stuff about heart valves and whatnot, but since it's not in the book, it's sort of understandable it's not in Villeneuve's film, either. We simply learn the Harkonnen are not men of their word, with the Baron blatantly lying and betraying left and right.

    Another thing Herbert never really provided was a satisfactory way of how the men of future would fight whole wars with knives and forcefields only. He gave us the why, and a half-hearted why-not for firearms and rayguns, and then the bit about how Rabban was given some classic ballistic artillery to surprise the Atreides with, but ultimately the concept of entire field armies fighting was left awfully vague. Which is what we see in the movie, too, with tactics-free slashing and stabbing between two or sometimes three mobs.

    But Villeneuve tries - there are delightful visuals to establish that which cannot and really shouldn't be told in boring words. Spaceship-killing bombs or breaching pods that first drop down and then slowly force their way through the shield are really cool, and sort of the film's equivalent to the mere paragraph that Herbert originally gives for describing the fight and the future hardware used in it. We also see handheld and shipborne lasers, and they are scary as all hell, cutting through stone like butter. No ballistic artillery in evidence as such, alas.

    Also, it's a brilliant choice to portray the forcefields as blue when stopping fast-moving threats and red when being penetrated by slow-moving blades or needles or the like. The audience can immediately tell what's going on, in duels or melees or ship-to-ship fights alike.

    As for ecology, Kynes dies a bit differently in the film, and rather cleverly IMHO. This eliminates a chance for her(!) to have this long inner-monologue exposition about the life cycle of the shai-hulud, but we'll get it in the second movie one way or another, if we get the second movie at all.

    All in all, Villeneuve chose to make the absolute minimum of choices, and IMHO made good ones, including the one to make so few... Whether this backfires when/if we get to view the duology as a whole remains to be seen.

    Oh, and Shadout Mapes is in the film. And goes through all the motions, being in all the scenes that Herbert offers. She's cool when first facing Lady Jessica, yet not a presence but a prop in all the rest. We don't really learn anything about the Fremen through her past that first scene. Which is another of the good choices, leaving more for Kynes and later Stilgar to do on that front.

    The Fenrings are not. Nor is there the slightest glimpse of the Emperor, which is another thing Villeneuve does better than Lynch: the Emperor is menacing rather than a puppet, and the heroes and the audience are yet to learn otherwise. Naturally no Irulan yet, either.

    And no Feyd-Rautha yet, even in dialogue. Which makes sense since there isn't a plot function for him yet - but this IMHO is the one borderline bad choice in the film, as this anti-Paul does serve a significant function in the overall story, and could have done his foreshadowing bit for the King and the Country, or the Baron and the House. But there may be good and practical reasons for there being no actor for the part yet...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2021