Don't know what to think about the Burqa law in France.

[infinix]

I don't know if I should cheer this as a form of government mandated social equality or decry this as a form of cultural and religious discrimination.

Obviously treating women as second class citizens is not something to be tolerated. But many women wear the Burqa willingly and happily as a form of religious devotion.

So what is more important? Our pursuit of tolerance and acceptance of all religion and culture or our desire to see gender equality and social justice be universal?

I'm not really interested in debating the intent of Nicolas Sarkozy for pushing this law. It is obvious that the guy is one of the most sleaziest politician to ever walk the land. But the law got me thinking... So what are your thoughts?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Whatever happened to "liberté" as defined in article 4 of "Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen" (1789):

"Liberty consists of being able to do anything that does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of every man or woman has no bounds other than those that guarantee other members of society the enjoyment of these same rights."

I can't see such a law against the wearing of the burqa being enacted in the UK where we don't even have a written constitution.

 

[infinix]

Whatever happened to "liberté" as defined in article 4 of "Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen" (1789):

"Liberty consists of being able to do anything that does not harm others: thus, the exercise of the natural rights of every man or woman has no bounds other than those that guarantee other members of society the enjoyment of these same rights."

Now the problem is that according to the Qur'an, women are naturally inferior to men and are supposed to be submissive to men in every way. This is also true in many Asian cultures.

How does the concept of liberty apply to those situations? Should every culture and religion adapt to the western definition of freedom?

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

So why arrest and question the women instead of their husbands or fathers? What if the women feel that the costume is an essential part of their culture - even if it seems warped and archaic to western sensibilities?

 

[Sean Aaron]

I personally don't feel strongly enough about this to enforce the law or seek to see it passed universally, but I think the niqab has no place in a modern society - certainly not in these security-conscious times.

It's also worth noting that whilst modesty is encouraged in the Qur'an the niqab is no proscribed so banning it isn't some kind of religious persecution.

 

[infinix]

So why arrest and question the women instead of their husbands or fathers? What if the women feel that the costume is an essential part of their culture - even if it seems warped and archaic to western sensibilities?

Actually, if a woman is caught in public wearing a Burqa, they will be fined up to 200 Euro and be asked to attend a civil obedience class. If a man is caught forcing a woman to wear a Burga, the man could be fined up to 40,000 Euro and be jailed for up to 6 months.

And yeah, the second part of your question is exactly what I am trying to get at.

 

[Myasishchev]

Europeans simply do not understand the concept of freedom of expression. They never have. They talk about it a lot, put it in their constitutions and sign treaties agreeing that it's a fundamental right, but they just don't get it. It's baffling, and more than a little vexing.

And the thing is, I love France. It's my fourth favorite country in the world. I'm pretty disappointed in them.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

So why arrest and question the women instead of their husbands or fathers? What if the women feel that the costume is an essential part of their culture - even if it seems warped and archaic to western sensibilities?

Actually, if a woman is caught in public wearing a Burqa, they will be fined up to 200 Euro and be asked to attend a civil obedience class. If a man is caught forcing a woman to wear a Burga, the man could be fined up to 40,000 Euro and be jailed for up to 6 months.

And yeah, the second part of your question is exactly what I am trying to get at.

It seems potentially unconstitutional to ban women from wearing these costumes if they are doing so under their own volition. I would imagine that the European Court of Human Rights might have to get involved eventually to rule on this. I'm not a lawyer so

 

[Sean Aaron]

So why arrest and question the women instead of their husbands or fathers? What if the women feel that the costume is an essential part of their culture - even if it seems warped and archaic to western sensibilities?

Well, these women weren't taken into custody because of the law, but the illegal demo, which is an important distinction.

As to the law, well, it's an easy political win for Sarkozy, but also I think it's not a bad thing to say that some cultural practices, like say covering yourself from head-to-toe when you go out in public, aren't on.

To your last post, yeah, I expect this to go to the ECHR; you may well be right about it being against Human Rights law in which case it will be struck down.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Ah, you're correct about why they were arrested - I hadn't read the latest report. Whether such laws and the suppression of protests arising there from will gain Sarkozy any popular support is doubtful.

ETA: Out of interest, would a man wearing such a garment be subject to a fine? If not, that's sexual discrimination, right there.

 

[Subcommander R.]

It's simply absurd. In a first world democracy no one is being forced to dress any one particular way. Except for this where the law forces them. I consider it intrusive and unfair.

But I do also remind everyone that Syria has an equivalent ban on the burqa (I can't recall whether or not they allow the niqab. France banned both.).

 

[Pingfah]

Europeans simply do not understand the concept of freedom of expression. They never have. They talk about it a lot, put it in their constitutions and sign treaties agreeing that it's a fundamental right, but they just don't get it. It's baffling, and more than a little vexing.

And the thing is, I love France. It's my fourth favorite country in the world. I'm pretty disappointed in them.

I can assure you, there are Europeans who are concerned with the ongoing erosion of our rights, who are also quite capable of understanding the concept of freedom of expression.

 

[FPAlpha]

Europeans simply do not understand the concept of freedom of expression. They never have. They talk about it a lot, put it in their constitutions and sign treaties agreeing that it's a fundamental right, but they just don't get it. It's baffling, and more than a little vexing.

And the thing is, I love France. It's my fourth favorite country in the world. I'm pretty disappointed in them.

Are you a US citizen? If yes then you probably shouldn't throw stones..

I don't know what to think about this law.. from what i have read most women hate the Burqa (especially the younger generations) but for fear of violence or other punishment wear it.

I'm against government regulation in cases like these where there's no obvious reason like Germany's concealment prohibition which was introduced to be able to track and identify criminals (but to my knowledge isn't enforced with Burqa wearing women) but it is a tool of oppression but does a government have the mandate to induce cultural change via laws?

In this case i don't think so..

 

[RJDiogenes]

It's absolutely ridiculous. People should be allowed to dress as they please.

 

[Myasishchev]

Europeans simply do not understand the concept of freedom of expression. They never have. They talk about it a lot, put it in their constitutions and sign treaties agreeing that it's a fundamental right, but they just don't get it. It's baffling, and more than a little vexing.

And the thing is, I love France. It's my fourth favorite country in the world. I'm pretty disappointed in them.

I can assure you, there are Europeans who are concerned with the ongoing erosion of our rights, who are also quite capable of understanding the concept of freedom of expression.

Well, I should not say "Europeans" but "European governments" is certainly applicable. You can't put a swastika in a video game in Germany, you can't hold a rally about hating Muslims in Britain, and apparently you can't even choose the cut of your clothes in France.

But I apologize: there are many Europeans who don't like the laws their countrymen evidently don't mind--either because laws that silence them haven't been enacted yet, or because they have nothing interesting to say. Those are the Europeans I mean.

Are you a US citizen? If yes then you probably shouldn't throw stones..

Well, I can do all of those things listed above and more in America. I could set fire to an American flag and walk around in an SS uniform while I loudly proclaim the health benefits of pedophilia. America has a lot of flaws, especially societal ones, but the one thing we've almost been pretty good at is freedom of speech, and in the past half century we've gotten great at it.

Whereas France is kind of bad at it, for a First World country. Remember the trial of Michel Houellebecq? I do. He did an interview where he called Muslims cretins and was made to stand trial. What kind of country does that? Saudi Arabia does that. Apparently France does that. America does not do that. (In fairness to France, he was acquitted. But in America, you would never be brought to trial because it is not a crime or a tort or anything to be nasty to any religion or its adherents.)

The only real limit to our freedom of expression, I suppose, is public nudity, which is of course a shame. I'm not certain about public nudity laws in Europe, but I presume them to be roughly analogous, if less strict.

Now, to be clear, I love Europe. I expect better of Europe. If China did this, I don't even think I'd bat an eye. But Europe is supposed to at least as good as America, and France is dropping the ball on that, and letting the ball roll into tyranny's court, where terrible fascist basketball is played. I let the analogy get away from me; you take the point.

 

[Sean Aaron]

Well, I should not say "Europeans" but "European governments" is certainly applicable. You can't put a swastika in a video game in Germany, you can't hold a rally about hating Muslims in Britain, and apparently you can't even choose the cut of your clothes in France.

I cannot say I object to any of those things myself. One of many things I prefer about Europe to the United States. I don't see allowing Nazis the right to march through communities as something to boast about.

 

[JayOwl]

Europeans simply do not understand the concept of freedom of expression.

.

Sorry, it's just that there's a lot of 'freedom of expression' over here. Example: Extremist muslims shouting "British soldier burn in hell' and they're unopposed. It swings round, it can be a good or bad thing. Having said that, if you're not from a different culture and say something against another culture you don't really get the same sort of indifferent reaction from officials.

One thing I will say for the banning of the Burka is that when woman hide their faces, it seems strange. I don't like not being able to see someone's face, especially when in conversation, but then I'm from the South west, I don't see many... different cultures.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I want to know, if I walk down a street in France with a flowered bed sheet over my head will I get told to remove it?

I wish everyone who opposes this insane law would do just that.

 

[bluedana]

Well, I should not say "Europeans" but "European governments" is certainly applicable. You can't put a swastika in a video game in Germany, you can't hold a rally about hating Muslims in Britain, and apparently you can't even choose the cut of your clothes in France.

I cannot say I object to any of those things myself. One of many things I prefer about Europe to the United States. I don't see allowing Nazis the right to march through communities as something to boast about.

The fact that Nazis can have a parade in Skokie, Illinois, is what makes it possible for LGBT activists to hold a rally in Boston, Massachusetts.

I had the same question, teacake. Could I, a non-Muslim, wear a full body outfit in France just as a fashion statement? It just strikes me as odd to say to women, we object to men telling you that you MUST wear this garment. It is a sign of oppression. So we will pass a law that tells you that you CANNOT wear this garment. That is freedom.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

I don't really think it is a good idea for the government to involve itself in religion or fashion. I don't want the government telling me what to wear. That is apparently my girlfriend's job. Besides can you imagine if we had this law in the U.S. and Hilary Clinton became president, nothing but pant-suits as far as the eye can see.