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Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship?

Ro_Laren

Commodore
Commodore
As we all know, one of the reasons it was so difficult for the Federation and its allies to defeat the Dominion during the Dominion War was because the Founders could infiltrate anyone and / or assume the form of anyone. For a while, they thought that taking a blood sample would allow them to figure out if someone was a Changling, but they eventually learned that that didn’t work. So, why didn’t Starfleet station Betazoids and other telepaths on each station, ship, and all sensitive areas? That way they could ascertain whether someone had been replaced or perhaps they could have sensed an extra life form in the room (ex: “Captain, I’m sensing something from the cup on your desk”). You could argue that perhaps Betazoid and other telepaths couldn’t sense the thoughts of Changlings, much like they couldn’t sense the thoughts of the Ferengi. But, that in itself could be a tell. For instance, if all of a sudden a Betazoid couldn’t sense the thoughts of the human Starfleet Admiral, then perhaps it is because he/she had been replaced by a Changling!

Of course, you could say that perhaps the Changlings, in assuming the forms of different personnel / items, that they assumed the mindset of them too. As in, they were able to mask their true thoughts and trick Betazoids by only thinking what they thought the person they imitated would think. But, it is hard to imagine that they would have that ability… but anything is possible. In reality, I’m imaging that the Star Trek writers and producers either never thought of that idea or just ignored it in order just roll with the idea of the super sneaky Changlings.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

Lwaxana Troi could never read Odo, so I assume Betazoids and other telepathic species couldn't read changelings in general.

The negative tell-tale of suddenly not being able to sense Adm. Jones might work, but then you're deploying telepaths everywhere, and that's probably going to lead to a lot of violations of privacy, too.

The problem isn't that security screenings for changelings is a bad idea, it's that it can so easily devolve into paranoia. The one changeling that approached Sisko on Earth in the guise of O'Brien said there were only four of them on Earth. Who knows if even that many were really there? The whole goal was to drive the people of the Federation crazy with fear and paranoia. That's best served by making them think there are infiltrators to be found when there really aren't. They'll just keep looking and looking....
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

I'm fairly certain random thought scans would violate a whole bunch of federation laws.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

Lwaxana Troi could never read Odo, so I assume Betazoids and other telepathic species couldn't read changelings in general.

The negative tell-tale of suddenly not being able to sense Adm. Jones might work, but then you're deploying telepaths everywhere, and that's probably going to lead to a lot of violations of privacy, too.

The problem isn't that security screenings for changelings is a bad idea, it's that it can so easily devolve into paranoia. The one changeling that approached Sisko on Earth in the guise of O'Brien said there were only four of them on Earth. Who knows if even that many were really there? The whole goal was to drive the people of the Federation crazy with fear and paranoia. That's best served by making them think there are infiltrators to be found when there really aren't. They'll just keep looking and looking....

Actually, knowing with certainty the top starfleet/federation people are not changelings or that no changeling can enter sensitive facilities undetected would enormously decrease paranoia and increase confidence.

As for privacy - soldiers and politicians agree with restrictions of their privacy for national security reasons as part of the job.
As for the public at large - even today, we have searches and such if there's a reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing.

Failing to use telepaths is just a plothole - all but inevitable, considering the plot of DS9; in general, the Federation often failed to make use of its full abilities for the sake of drama.
The best way to explain it away - the federation did use telepaths; it was just off screen. Perhaps that's why Betazed was prioritized for conquest by the dominion.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

Sure, it all starts with rational security procedures. The Federation is good at staying calm and rational. But the changelings don't want things to stay calm and rational. Their goal would be to encourage the increase of security at the expense of liberties, increasing paranoia and turning the members of the Federation against each other.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

People, this isn't Babylon 5 we're talking about here. The ST universe doesn't deal with/use telepaths is way that actually makes, you know, sense. Don't get me wrong, I love DS9 especially and Trek in general, but I think B5 did a much better treatment of telepaths than Trek ever did.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

Sure, it all starts with rational security procedures. The Federation is good at staying calm and rational. But the changelings don't want things to stay calm and rational. Their goal would be to encourage the increase of security at the expense of liberties, increasing paranoia and turning the members of the Federation against each other.

This is your argument against instituting 'rational' security measures against an existential threat? Frankly, it's non-sense:

-without security meausres, the federation can just as well commit collective suicide and spare itself the pain of fighting a losing war (losing due to its utter incompetence);
-as said, using an effective counter measure would enormously decrease paranoia, NOT increase it;
-changelings don't want to increase 'security'; they want to obtain key pieces of information, destroy critical infrastructure, kill key personnel, etc;
-as for 'liberty' - any society requires you obeying its authority on occasion; the alternative is hunter-gatherer communities - guess how many of their members die by murder committed by neighbors? Or how many die by plague, hunger, etc? Guess as to their scientific or cultural output?
-etc
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

It's not an argument, just an observation. They have conflicting goals. The Feds want to maintain rational security measures without succumbing to paranoia, yes? And the changelings would want to ramp up the paranoia, no?
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

Since the Changelings can infiltrate anyone they could do it to the Betazoids as well and use them to falsely accuse important people and take them out of action while the situation is cleared up.

Not to mention it does nothing against Changelings who disguise themselves as things that are not live creatures. A Betazoid isn't going to notice the lack of being able to read the mind of a button, the reflective surface of a PADD or mist. Also it wouldn't work if the Changelings stick to species that Betazoids have problems reading as well.

Having telepaths in the most sensitive areas brings the River Tam problem where they could possibly learn the deep, dark secrets they shouldn't know. It would probably be prudent to lock away those at Starfleet Command for the duration of the war.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

As we all know, one of the reasons it was so difficult for the Federation and its allies to defeat the Dominion during the Dominion War was because the Founders could infiltrate anyone and / or assume the form of anyone.

Not really. Founder infiltration seems to have primarily been a concern in the years before the outbreak of the war itself. By the time the fighting started, there was little time spent on countering Founder infiltration.

For a while, they thought that taking a blood sample would allow them to figure out if someone was a Changling, but they eventually learned that that didn’t work. So, why didn’t Starfleet station Betazoids and other telepaths on each station, ship, and all sensitive areas?

That may well be why Founder infiltration wasn't as much of a concern after Season Five!
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

I'm fairly certain random thought scans would violate a whole bunch of federation laws.

That would explain why, in TNG's "The Drumhead," Sabin Genestra - one of Admiral Satie's aides, and a full Betazoid by all accounts - didn't simply scan Simon Tarses himself. Genestra could sense that Tarses was hiding something, but didn't read his mind personally. There must be laws against that. And also probably strict social mores on Betazed itself against forcible mind reading.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

Lwaxana Troi could never read Odo, so I assume Betazoids and other telepathic species couldn't read changelings in general.
I couldn’t remember whether she was able to read Odo or not. But, now it is starting to come back to me. But, as I mentioned (and you referred to), a Betazoid would be able to notice that all of a sudden he / she couldn’t get a read the thoughts of the person that they could the day before.
The problem isn't that security screenings for changelings is a bad idea, it's that it can so easily devolve into paranoia. The one changeling that approached Sisko on Earth in the guise of O'Brien said there were only four of them on Earth. Who knows if even that many were really there? The whole goal was to drive the people of the Federation crazy with fear and paranoia. That's best served by making them think there are infiltrators to be found when there really aren't. They'll just keep looking and looking....

You’re referring to the events mentioned in the episodes Homefront and Paradise Lost. I actually can see this as being legitimate rational against using telepaths, but mainly post Homefront and Paradise Lost. At the end of Paradise Lost, they mentioned that despite the fact that they knew that there were still Changlings on earth, they didn’t want to sacrifice the cushy Earth life that they loved.

As for privacy - soldiers and politicians agree with restrictions of their privacy for national security reasons as part of the job.
As for the public at large - even today, we have searches and such if there's a reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing.

Agreed!

The best way to explain it away - the federation did use telepaths; it was just off screen. Perhaps that's why Betazed was prioritized for conquest by the dominion.

I would say that perhaps they used telepaths if it were for the events of Homefront and Paradise Lost. Do you recall if Betazed was destroyed before or after those episodes? Using that rationale to explain why the Dominion might have targeted Betazed is an interesting theory. But, you would think that there are other species in the Federation that are as good as reading thoughts as the Betazoids.


Since the Changelings can infiltrate anyone they could do it to the Betazoids as well and use them to falsely accuse important people and take them out of action while the situation is cleared up.

That could happen, but hopefully if someone was accused you’d have a number of telepaths around so that you could “double check.” And then you have to hope that all of the telepaths weren’t replaced by Changlings! But, in reality, it isn’t like the Federation has a death penalty or anything. They would put the Changling in a prison, in which case you should be able to verify if the accused really is a Changling or not.

Not to mention it does nothing against Changelings who disguise themselves as things that are not live creatures. A Betazoid isn't going to notice the lack of being able to read the mind of a button, the reflective surface of a PADD or mist. Also it wouldn't work if the Changelings stick to species that Betazoids have problems reading as well.

Wasn’t Deanna able to sense sentient beings (within a reasonable amount of distance) whether or not she could physically see them? If that is the case, then Betazoids should have been able to sense a Changling masquerading as a PADD.


Having telepaths in the most sensitive areas brings the River Tam problem where they could possibly learn the deep, dark secrets they shouldn't know. It would probably be prudent to lock away those at Starfleet Command for the duration of the war.

That’s why any telepaths in sensitive areas would need to have security clearance! And, it isn’t like they have to be in a room listening to the Admirals making all their war plans. They could be at building entrances or hallway entrances or door entrances… just like regular security guards.

As we all know, one of the reasons it was so difficult for the Federation and its allies to defeat the Dominion during the Dominion War was because the Founders could infiltrate anyone and / or assume the form of anyone.
Not really. Founder infiltration seems to have primarily been a concern in the years before the outbreak of the war itself. By the time the fighting started, there was little time spent on countering Founder infiltration.

Just because it wasn’t seen in any episodes doesn’t mean that it wasn’t going on. :)
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

It would be interesting to know how the writers might have dealt with this storyline had it been written post-9/11. Would they have kept to the pro-civil liberties stance they took (very much in the classic tradition of Trek, IMHO) or would they have taken more of a 'security outweighs liberty' position, the way the likes of 24 did.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

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I'm fairly certain random thought scans would violate a whole bunch of federation laws.
That would explain why, in TNG's "The Drumhead," Sabin Genestra - one of Admiral Satie's aides, and a full Betazoid by all accounts - didn't simply scan Simon Tarses himself. Genestra could sense that Tarses was hiding something, but didn't read his mind personally. There must be laws against that. And also probably strict social mores on Betazed itself against forcible mind reading.

That is true, but in time of war extra security measures have to be taken. Think of it as an extra security check. For example, when you beam aboard a ship they check to see if you have weapons. And at least once we saw that either someone’s weapon was deactivated or an alarm went off (I forget which) when he entered DS9 while carrying weapons. Sometimes when you enter secure facilities you have to give a password, perhaps retinal scan or palm print (ok, I can’t remember if the last two were ever on ST). So, if that is the case, why not consider the “telepath check” another one of those security measures? If “forcible mind reading” is a check, it is something that Lwaxana clearly ignored and Deanna did too (well, she still read people’s emotions at least).
And, unlike Simon Tarses at the begin on his interrogation on The Drumhead, I doubt the Federation could keep its use of telepathic screenings secret for very long. So, people shouldn’t be surprised when their thoughts are read… really they should never be surprised considering that Betazed is a member of the Federation and it can be hard to know if you are in the same room as Betazoid, considering that they look almost identical to humans!
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

why not consider the “telepath check” another one of those security measures?

Because the integrity of the mind is a special case that cannot - MUST not - be violated.

When people's minds can be read with ease and without restraint, there can be no privacy, and that is unacceptable.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

People, this isn't Babylon 5 we're talking about here. The ST universe doesn't deal with/use telepaths is way that actually makes, you know, sense. Don't get me wrong, I love DS9 especially and Trek in general, but I think B5 did a much better treatment of telepaths than Trek ever did.

People already accuse DS9 of being a B5 ripoff! Now suddenly we're throwing telepaths on every ship to stop the evil Shado...err...Dominion? Terrible idea.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

People, this isn't Babylon 5 we're talking about here. The ST universe doesn't deal with/use telepaths is way that actually makes, you know, sense. Don't get me wrong, I love DS9 especially and Trek in general, but I think B5 did a much better treatment of telepaths than Trek ever did.

People already accuse DS9 of being a B5 ripoff! Now suddenly we're throwing telepaths on every ship to stop the evil Shado...err...Dominion? Terrible idea.

Of course, the big difference there is that telepathy is a very different phenomenon in Babylon 5 than in Star Trek. On B5, telepaths are a minority group within each of the sentient species, and in the Earth Alliance, all are members of and regulated by the Psi Corps, an officially government agency with a monopoly on the provision of telepathic services to the government, the courts, businesses, and private citizens. (And which has devolved into its own authoritarian cult with its own agenda to take over the government, but I digress.)

On Star Trek, on the other hand, telepathy is a widespread talent of various non-Human species who are equal partners with Earth within the Federation, and telepathic Humans are both exceedingly rare and exceedingly limited. So it apparently just can't be regulated or channeled the way it could on B5.
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

Sure, it all starts with rational security procedures. The Federation is good at staying calm and rational. But the changelings don't want things to stay calm and rational. Their goal would be to encourage the increase of security at the expense of liberties, increasing paranoia and turning the members of the Federation against each other.


Surely a long standing and advanced society would never allow their very civil foundation to erode over a signal traumatic event...
:vulcan:
 
Re: Dominion War - Why Didn’t Starfleet Station Betazoids on Each Ship

^Plus Trek had telepaths first!

Well, yeah, but only in the same sense that it had, say, spaceships first. Star Trek happens to be older, that's all. And plenty of other works of science fiction featured telepathy before Star Trek -- the telepathic Charles Xavier first appeared in Marvel Comics's X-Men #1 in 1963, for instance; Robert Heinlein used it in his 1956 novel Time for the Stars; A.E. van Vogt used it in 1940's Slan; etc. So telepathy is hardly original to Star Trek.
 
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