Dominion negotiations....

[Mage]

In INS there was a reference to the Dimplomatic Corp being busy with Dominion negotiations.
Untill now, I just thought it was a neat reference. But today, it somehow kinda struck me as odd.

The Dominion are stated as being pretty black or white. Yes or no. Even when Dukat negotiated a treaty between Cardassia and the Dominion, we quickly realize that whatever the Dominion might have promised, they are basicly calling the shots on Cardassia, and the Cardassians better follow or else...

Especially regarding the Federation, the Dominion seems to have a clear agenda: utter and complete devistation, so they can impose their order on what's left.

So why would there be any negotiations?? Sure, the Federation would be reaching out, but I can't help but feel that the Dominion would slap that reaching hand away and just ignore any diplomatic steps the Federation would like to take. Meaning that the Diplomatic Corp wouldn't be that busy at all.

What do you all think??

 

[Sindatur]

In INS there was a reference to the Dimplomatic Corp being busy with Dominion negotiations.
Untill now, I just thought it was a neat reference. But today, it somehow kinda struck me as odd.

The Dominion are stated as being pretty black or white. Yes or no. Even when Dukat negotiated a treaty between Cardassia and the Dominion, we quickly realize that whatever the Dominion might have promised, they are basicly calling the shots on Cardassia, and the Cardassians better follow or else...

Especially regarding the Federation, the Dominion seems to have a clear agenda: utter and complete devistation, so they can impose their order on what's left.

So why would there be any negotiations?? Sure, the Federation would be reaching out, but I can't help but feel that the Dominion would slap that reaching hand away and just ignore any diplomatic steps the Federation would like to take. Meaning that the Diplomatic Corp wouldn't be that busy at all.

What do you all think??

Oh, I think the Dominion would absolutely keep up the pretense of negotiations to occupy Starfleet and give false hope, and attempt to slow the Feds preparations for War. Anything to give themselves a greater advantage and keep Starfleet off balance. Sure, any deal eventually struck (Though I doubt any deal could be struck) wouldn't be honored by the Dominion in the Spirit Starfleet wanted, but, they'd certainly pursue the pretense, if the opportunity presented itself, IMHO.

 

[Lord Garth]

According to Michael Piller's unpublished book about the making of Insurrection, he wrote the script in late-1997 and was trying to anticipate where DS9 would be in the middle of the seventh season. He even asked Ira Steven Behr where the Dominion War woud be. Ira said things would be looking up.

The Romulans joining the war, seemed to help balance the lop-sided war between the Dominion and the Klingons/Federation.

Maybe Michael Piller mistook "looking up", that or no one was quite sure yet of how seventh season DS9 would proceed. Filming of the movie was actually concurrent with the end of filming the '97-'98 TV season (DS9 S6 and VOY S4). See Star Trek: Action! (1998), a non-fiction book on the production by Terry J. Erdmann. It covers the production of "Hope and Fear", "Tears of the Prophets", and INS.

INSwent through a lot of other story/script changes, so this line must've been low on the totem pole.

 

[Timo]

No harm really done, though. The movie makes the most sense if we assume it takes place after the war has ended; there are certainly no stardates or internal references to indicate otherwise. And at the conclusion of the war, the Dominion would certainly be willing to negotiate over many things, including "Now that you defeated our beachhead force but our standing army could still wipe you out in half a heartbeat, how shall we best pretend that you won?".

Besides, the Dominion did negotiate earlier on, but was defeated by the Jack Pack ("Statistical Probabilities"). This would seem to establish both their will to negotiate in a cinch; the fundamental deviousness; and the considerable effort needed from the UFP side to see through all the tricks.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

I could see diplomatic channels being open between the Federation and the Dominion (via the Vorta) during the war. The negotiations might have been ultimately futile or perhaps were simply worlds apart, but it's possible that previous conflicts involving the Federation were ended by diplomats reaching an agreement rather than by a final barrage of photon torpedoes.

The terms the Dominion agreed to may have been on the table prior to the Battle of Cardassia.

 

[G2309]

In the pale moon light the Romulan senator said how the Dominion were determined to win the war whilst starfleet was trying to make peace. Starfleet always trying to find peaceful solutions hence why they let dominion forces build for so long in the alpha quadrant. They would always prefer peace to war.

 

[Lance]

My feeling has always been that DS9 considerably skewed how we as viewers saw the effects of the Dominion War.

I suspect that the primary Federation presence would, in true Star Trek tradition, naturally be attempting to negotiate with the Dominion; to try and find a peaceful solution before resorting to the last resort of all-out combat. The difference being that DS9 and her crew were at the 'front line' of the conflict. Even though Sisko was working alongside the Admiralty back at Earth during certain stages of the war (when the Cardassians and Dominion took over the station), by and large what we see of the Dominion War is from the point-of-view of a scattergun crew stationed at a far flung outpost that just happens to be at the wormhole leading to Dominion territory. So naturally, the stories are going to be told in a different way, because DS9 was seeing the immediate impact of the invasion, long before anybody else in Starfleet did.

The way I've always interpreted those scenes in Insurrection which mention the war, is that what we're seeing in the movie is a different take, one which is, if you will, some distance away from that 'front line' conflict. Insurrection allows us to have a peek behind the curtain, to see the backdrop of the War from elsewhere. And like it or not, what Insurrection shows us is that for the Fleet away from the bubble of DS9, or at least for the Enterprise, it would appear that the 'war' was not nearly as huge a deal as it evidently was for those stationed in and around Bajor/DS9. For Picard, Riker, Data et al things are proceeding pretty much business as usual.

I do find it regrettable that screenwriter Michael Pillar's original attempts to lace Insurrection with more references to the ongoing war (not least through the character of Worf, a transplant from DS9) were scuttled by Rick Berman, who felt it would be "too confusing" for audiences who hadn't been following DS9 (though Berman's own personal displeasure with the whole 'Dominion Arc' is on record). It would have added greater weight to Starfleet's willingness to work with the Son'a if it were explained more fully that they were doing so as a means to use the fountain of youth in the continuing war effort. Would have helped to make Insurrection feel more integrated with DS9 too; which, let's face it, had taken the mantle of being the "primary" Trek source -- Voyager being off in the Delta Quadrant and away from the regularity of Starfleet politics disqualified it in that regard.

 

[Timo]

Starfleet always trying to find peaceful solutions hence why they let dominion forces build for so long in the alpha quadrant.

Either that, or then it took them two years to amass the fleets necessary for waging war. Starfleet ships tend to be deployed far away on exploration missions, after all; note how several Captains appear in DS9 episodes wearing the TNG era uniform, as if just arriving from the outer fringes of the UFP realm...

The way I've always interpreted those scenes in Insurrection which mention the war, is that what we're seeing in the movie is a different take, one which is, if you will, some distance away from that 'front line' conflict.

The absence of the war from the storyline is IMHO too total for that. Our heroes do not regret (or take delight in!) that diplomacy takes them away from the front lines; they only contrast diplomacy to exploration. The next mission for the ship is supposed to be a months-long archaeology sortie; it is implausible that the big warship could be tied down in something like that during the war. At best, Picard and his crew could beam down for that mission, at which point some other skipper would take the ship to war - but we don't hear of anything like this.

For Picard, Riker, Data et al things are proceeding pretty much business as usual.

Which may well be because there is no war; the events of "What You Leave Behind" may be months or years in the past of ST:INS.

There simply are too many things that detract from the idea of an ongoing war. Most tellingly, the dealings of the Son'a with the wartime enemy Jem'Hadar are spoken of in the past tense, and dismissed. Which side are our TNG heroes fighting for, if there indeed is a war going on somewhere?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mage]

In INS there was a reference to the Dimplomatic Corp being busy with Dominion negotiations.
Untill now, I just thought it was a neat reference. But today, it somehow kinda struck me as odd.

The Dominion are stated as being pretty black or white. Yes or no. Even when Dukat negotiated a treaty between Cardassia and the Dominion, we quickly realize that whatever the Dominion might have promised, they are basicly calling the shots on Cardassia, and the Cardassians better follow or else...

Especially regarding the Federation, the Dominion seems to have a clear agenda: utter and complete devistation, so they can impose their order on what's left.

So why would there be any negotiations?? Sure, the Federation would be reaching out, but I can't help but feel that the Dominion would slap that reaching hand away and just ignore any diplomatic steps the Federation would like to take. Meaning that the Diplomatic Corp wouldn't be that busy at all.

What do you all think??

Oh, I think the Dominion would absolutely keep up the pretense of negotiations to occupy Starfleet and give false hope, and attempt to slow the Feds preparations for War. Anything to give themselves a greater advantage and keep Starfleet off balance. Sure, any deal eventually struck (Though I doubt any deal could be struck) wouldn't be honored by the Dominion in the Spirit Starfleet wanted, but, they'd certainly pursue the pretense, if the opportunity presented itself, IMHO.

Didn't think of it that way, I like that train of thought.

 

[Trek Survivor]

I do find it regrettable that screenwriter Michael Pillar's original attempts to lace Insurrection with more references to the ongoing war (not least through the character of Worf, a transplant from DS9) were scuttled by Rick Berman, who felt it would be "too confusing" for audiences who hadn't been following DS9 (though Berman's own personal displeasure with the whole 'Dominion Arc' is on record). It would have added greater weight to Starfleet's willingness to work with the Son'a if it were explained more fully that they were doing so as a means to use the fountain of youth in the continuing war effort. Would have helped to make Insurrection feel more integrated with DS9 too; which, let's face it, had taken the mantle of being the "primary" Trek source -- Voyager being off in the Delta Quadrant and away from the regularity of Starfleet politics disqualified it in that regard.

I think Berman made the right call with "Insurrection" and its minimal ties to DS9 and Voyager.

 

[G2309]

I think Berman made the right call with "Insurrection" and its minimal ties to DS9 and Voyager.

I hate to agree that Berman was right but its true. The movies needed to work on their own, they didn't need any unecessary referecences. Unless the movie had been about the war it was unessary.

 

[Ian Keldon]

I think Berman made the right call with "Insurrection" and its minimal ties to DS9 and Voyager.

I think Berman needed to sit down, shut up, and let his writers write. His constant "dumbing down" of Trek was one of the things that hurt the franchise in later years.

We viewers are big boys and girls...we don't need plotlines reduced to pablum in order to understand them.

To the extent DS9 was ignored by Berman was the extent that it was allowed to flourish and become the best modern Trek series until S4 of Enterprise.

 

[CoveTom]

Dumbing down your plot is one thing, being realistic about your audience is another. I think Berman was doing the latter. Films and television series are different animals. It's one thing to expect people coming to see a TNG film to be familiar with TNG. It's another to expect them to be familiar with DS9. Making more than passing references to that show was unnecessary and just would have left questions in the minds of audience members who didn't follow DS9.

The TNG movies did not ignore DS9 or pretend it didn't exist. They just didn't make a big deal about referencing it. In First Contact, we saw the Defiant, we heard about Worf being on DS9. In Insurrection, they referenced the Dominion War, they mentioned Ketracel White, and again made a brief reference to Worf being away from DS9.

Any more than that wasn't necessary to serve the plot and so it was rightly left out.

 

[BillJ]

Any more than that wasn't necessary to serve the plot and so it was rightly left out.

Well, to call what they had in Insurrection a plot is being kind.

 

[Seven of Five]

I always thought the line was a dud, so I always interpreted it as a throwaway reference to DS9. Looking at it literally, you could assume that the movie takes place after DS9 finished as there was no stardate mentioned.

Inspite of this, I think that the film's events were supposed to be happening concurrently the TV series, especially since there was a mention of the Son'a producing Ketracel White for the Dominion after Insurrection was released. In this case, maybe either Starfleet was being typically Starfleet, and tried to reach out in peace to the Dominion.

Alternatively, the Dominion may have tricked Starfleet into negotiations, which could have turned out into some sort of trap to gain intelligence, or to divert attention away from elsewhere. In fact it was probably a lost episode of TNG's 13th season.