Does it have to be COMPLETELY lifeless?

[Timo]

I don't think we can argue that Genesis "remained" anything - after all, its most pertinent quality was that it did not remain at all!

Everybody seemed to agree that Genesis as detonated was a failure, i.e. not what a successful test detonation should have yielded. There may be multiple reasons to that: fundamental conceptual failure due to the properties of protomatter, failure to detonate against a suitable planetary target, and/or possibly failure to sustain stability when not in the sweet zone.

I'd also argue that both of the Ceti Alpha V locations were sweet enough for Genesis, just like both Earth and Mars and perhaps Venus would probably be okay for Genesis (or other sorts of terraforming) in our system. But countless generations of earlier terraformers would have taken care not to leave any Goldilocks planets in their natural, lifeless state; finding a true desert world there would take some looking.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

I don't think we can argue that Genesis "remained" anything - after all, its most pertinent quality was that it did not remain at all!

Everybody seemed to agree that Genesis as detonated was a failure, i.e. not what a successful test detonation should have yielded. There may be multiple reasons to that: fundamental conceptual failure due to the properties of protomatter, failure to detonate against a suitable planetary target, and/or possibly failure to sustain stability when not in the sweet zone.

I'd also argue that both of the Ceti Alpha V locations were sweet enough for Genesis, just like both Earth and Mars and perhaps Venus would probably be okay for Genesis (or other sorts of terraforming) in our system. But countless generations of earlier terraformers would have taken care not to leave any Goldilocks planets in their natural, lifeless state; finding a true desert world there would take some looking.

Timo Saloniemi

Genesis could have been used on smaller planets if they had artificial means to protect them from atmosphere loss and planets outside the goldilocks zone if there was some other way to heat the planet - greenhouse effect, gravitational friction etc. The degree to which humanoids could populate them would vary but other life forms could thrive.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

^ Actually, my overall point is that Genesis managed to produce a breathable atmosphere and a range of Earth-like climates for several months before it ultimately exploded. This is either a really convenient coincidence at the mutara nebula/Regula asteroid being within the local stars habitation zone, or the device just plain doesn't care where the star is and arranges the proper climate no matter what the local radiation flux (smart device, eh?)

Of course I'm suddenly curious about two other issues:
1) How come they didn't just test it on Regula? I doubt the "great rock in space" had any microbial life on it; sure, it's close to the nebula, but it would more than suffice for a test, wouldn't it?

2) Was it ever established for sure that the Genesis device was never used again after TWOK? I don't consider it beyond the realm of possibility that Genesis or something like it isn't already being used to terraform some otherwise habitable planets. I kind of think that might have been the genesis (pun intended) of a number of Federation worlds; Turkana-IV, for example.

 

[publiusr]

The Genesis device could have allowed ST II: TWOK storyline to develop in different ways. Imagine Khan didn't lose his wife, but still wanted revenge on Kirk. A smarter way to go about it was this. Get to Chekov, but no threat--no ceti eels, except to show that he had been abandoned, then plead in a nice way to Carol Marcus. No distress call. She could be presuaded to test Genesis on Ceti Alpha V to restore it to life, however briefly. Khan would allow the effect to erase the eels, except for the few he harvests ahead of time. Who knows, the protomatter might no have been the only problem. Perhaps the movie deployment in the Nebula instead of a big stable planet was the problem

After Ceti Alpha V is restored, a PR campaign is waged against kirk, with eels being used on key leaders in the federation, a la TNG's "Conspiracy."

This is what the "Space Seed" Khan would have done--be civil...at first. This might be a nice alternate storyline all its own.

My idea for the ultimate sci-fi crossover story would merge Dr. Who, Stargate (Atlantis) ST and Star Wars. The Doctor uses wraith scan teleporters to house Alderan's entire populace right before it is destroyed, then the perfected Genesis device restores the debris to planethood. Everybody lives. The disappearance of all those folks, not their extinction, is the disturbance, along with non sentient life, otherwise Obi-Wan would have been floored as Spock was when just one ship of Vulcans bit the dust.

 

[David cgc]

Of course I'm suddenly curious about two other issues:
1) How come they didn't just test it on Regula? I doubt the "great rock in space" had any microbial life on it; sure, it's close to the nebula, but it would more than suffice for a test, wouldn't it?

Too small, probably. Especially if that shot of the Enterprise on one side, than dollying up to the other side of the asteroid to see the Reliant and the space station is anything close to scale. Given that it was referred to as a planetoid, though, it'd be smaller than an Earth, or even Mars or the Moon.

 

[blssdwlf]

Of course I'm suddenly curious about two other issues:
1) How come they didn't just test it on Regula? I doubt the "great rock in space" had any microbial life on it; sure, it's close to the nebula, but it would more than suffice for a test, wouldn't it?

2) Was it ever established for sure that the Genesis device was never used again after TWOK? I don't consider it beyond the realm of possibility that Genesis or something like it isn't already being used to terraform some otherwise habitable planets. I kind of think that might have been the genesis (pun intended) of a number of Federation worlds; Turkana-IV, for example.

On point 1 - They wouldn't use it on Regula at the time because they just created life in the caverns. They would then have to remove all the newly created life from Regula before testing it on the entire planetoid. Perhaps it would've taken more effort to move all life (down to the microbe) than to just find a suitable target planet.

On point 2 - no mention of it beyond the 4th movie, AFAIK.

 

[Pauln6]

The planet would need sufficient mass to maintain a molten core for a decent period of time. Without the magnetic field created by the core (or some artifical means), your atmosphere would be stripped away by solar winds. This could take place over thousands or millions of years though I guess, after which you can just pop another Genesis device and start again.

 

[Timo]

^ Actually, my overall point is that Genesis managed to produce a breathable atmosphere and a range of Earth-like climates for several months before it ultimately exploded. This is either a really convenient coincidence at the mutara nebula/Regula asteroid being within the local stars habitation zone, or the device just plain doesn't care where the star is and arranges the proper climate no matter what the local radiation flux (smart device, eh?)

My point regarding this is that Genesis works on just about anything - but the test itself is meaningless unless performed in the Goldilocks zone (where the actual pratical use would be) yet on a lifeless world (to establish maximum performance).

Of course I'm suddenly curious about two other issues:
1) How come they didn't just test it on Regula? I doubt the "great rock in space" had any microbial life on it; sure, it's close to the nebula, but it would more than suffice for a test, wouldn't it?

But they didn't need to. They already knew it worked. The cave test had established that much.

The test would have to be about something else besides Genesis working. And being about the practical ability to create a sustainable farming world would be a pretty good rationale for the large scale Phase III test.

It might well be that the Marcuses were planning on going extremely public at Phase III - after all, the experiment would be easily observable by foreign powers (at least in its consequences), just like the eventual unplanned detonation was. Regula could backfire in that respect as well, turning a nifty UFP Area 51 into a county fair and hampering further research there.

2) Was it ever established for sure that the Genesis device was never used again after TWOK? I don't consider it beyond the realm of possibility that Genesis or something like it isn't already being used to terraform some otherwise habitable planets. I kind of think that might have been the genesis (pun intended) of a number of Federation worlds; Turkana-IV, for example.

We know protomatter continues to be used in some terraforming-style manipulation, as in "Second Sight" and "By Inferno's Light". However, we also see more painstaking terraforming in "Home Soil". Furthermore, we see that terraforming is hardly necessary in the TNG era, because Class M planets are available in abundance. We might think Genesis remains a mariginal, experimental technology, then, only applied on occasion and mainly out of scientific curiosity.

OTOH, perhaps the abundance of Class M options for colonies in the TNG era is the direct result of liberal Genesis use? The technology might be closely guarded, but once the government decided to open an area for colonization - say, the Argolis cluster - Starfleet would fly in and launch a dozen Genesis torps, after which assorted Gideon Seyetliks would assess the results and give the worlds the finishing touches.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Eternality]

Just rewatched TWOK this weekend, and I thought of this thread, leading me to ask this question:

What if the problem isn't just finding a lifeless rock in the Hab Zone of a star, but a lifeless rock within mission range of Reliant and Regula, and also far enough off the existing spacelanes that noone would happen upon the test site before the experiment was complete?

Perhaps there were other mission parameters and restrictions that made the search for what normally might be quite simple to find, into a rougher proposition for just one starship.

 

[diankra]

We know protomatter continues to be used in some terraforming-style manipulation, as in "Second Sight" and "By Inferno's Light". However, we also see more painstaking terraforming in "Home Soil". Furthermore, we see that terraforming is hardly necessary in the TNG era, because Class M planets are available in abundance. We might think Genesis remains a mariginal, experimental technology, then, only applied on occasion and mainly out of scientific curiosity.Timo Saloniemi

That slides into one of the big problems with STIII:
Harve Bennett seems to be aiming to remove Genesis from future Trek by saying 'The planet's unstable, so it didn't work.'
But even if you accept that (ignoring the possibility that it might have worked perfectly in the longer term if David hadn't cut corners with protomatter, and the test had been run as properly planned), then Genesis still works.
It works in the way that Kruge wanted to use it, and McCoy feared it would be used - as a planet destroying weapon. As the saying goes, you can't uninvent the atom bomb (at least, not without getting rid of anyone who knows basic nuclear physics).

 

[Timo]

In ST3, Saavik seemed well versed in the "unethical" properties of protomatter. Perhaps the protomatter bomb was already a known weapon on the theoretical level at least - and possibly there already were practical applications before Genesis already?

Despite Kruge's rantings, we don't really learn that Genesis would be a weapon of unprecedented power. Perhaps it's not the A-bomb of Star Trek, but more like the neutron bomb - the first superweapon that not only destroys a planet's hostile population, but in addition leaves a still living planet ripe for conquest?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[publiusr]

Sounds about right. I forget the DS9 episode where Richard Kiley's character re-awakens a star. Most of some satras mass is still left behind, though in a heavier form of matter due to fusion products. So I am thinking Genesis did something to the pulsar that Reliant seemed to be hinding behind in that planetary nebula. The Genesis planet blew itself into chunks, but not so much as to dissipate back into a nebula, unless you go by the novel. Then too, if they were nearby Ceti lpha V, a story line that whatever made that planet go heywire was the problem, and not protomatter itself, which could be argued suffered a bad wrap. I also am reminded of this story for some reason.

http://blog.vixra.org/2010/08/24/can-nuclear-decay-rates-change-with-solar-flares/

My guess is that the Genesis device is actually a version of the tiny transporter we see Data install on Picard in Genesis, with the Genesis wave the polar opposite of the Thaleron weapon--something transporter or replicator related that continued in some run-away fashion to build life, not destroy it. I have wracked my brains as to how such a device could work-even in fiction, and my guess is that it creates a warp pocket to accumulate a lot of mass, and perhaps even have a timelike componant to fast forward nebula building if fired into clouds which stretched its ability.

 

[Pauln6]

If Nero had used a Genesis device to destroy Vulcan I would oddly have found it less nigglingly annoying than Red Matter. Go figure!

 

[KJbushway]

Something's been bothering me about The Wrath of Khan for a couple of days now. Reliant's mission is apparently to search for a lifeless space body, "A moon or other dead form" to test the genesis device. The only stated criteria is that it has to be completely lifeless and incapable of supporting life. Now, I'm assuming the reason for this is Doctor Marcus' concern that anything living on the planet might screw up the experiment somehow, either hyper-evolve into something weird or just throw a monkey wrench into the works (I never got the impression she was all that concerned about a few dead microbes).

The thing that bugs me is this: our solar system is currently teeming with lifeless space bodies--moons and assorted dead forms. These obviously wouldn't be suitable for genesis because by the 23rd century most of them would have already been colonized (possibly terraformed, in the case of Mars). But in a galaxy that is apparently chock full of Earthlike planets, why would it be in ANY WAY difficult to locate an uninhabited lifeless planet? I mean, I should think that a planet with no life on it at all should be the EASIEST thing to find, right?

So what the hell was Reliant's problem?

Well, some of the planets in just around us, we can terra-form with our current level of technology, and some moons like ours could have had bases on them. So i can see why it would be a little hard to find a lifeless planet. because there was hundreds of space going species. plus the reason why they were searching the lifeless planet they were was apart of the story plot, I mean it would have been a long boring movie if you had seen the reliant go from planet to planet to planet. they had to make it short and sweet.