Do You Prefer the 'All Good Things' Future?

[PhoenixIreland]

Wheres all this love for the Romulans coming from all of a sudden??? I thought they were the least interesting main enemy ST ever had.

Sacrilege!!!



They were a lot more interesting before the Klingons got a transplant of their warrior's honor angle after TOS... but I think they still do well. I like an enemy that is difficult to hate.

I'm honestly curious why you found them disinteresting?

(And I also like your observations regarding the AGT future.)

Well compared to the Kingons they're ok because the Klingons are kinda one dimensional.
But compare them to the Dominion or even the Hirogen both of which were more complex and had more depth to them.

They never really explored what the Romulans were about apart from wanting to conquer the galaxy but never actually doing anything to accomplish that apart from the odd clever espionage operation or incursion here or there.
Nemesis then finished them off for me, I almost dozed off during some of the Romulan internal stuff in that movie.

I would be interesting to see an alternate future like that where the Dominion won the war and control 3 out of the 4 quadrants

 

[Praetor]

Well compared to the Kingons they're ok because the Klingons are kinda one dimensional.
But compare them to the Dominion or even the Hirogen both of which were more complex and had more depth to them.

Well, I'm with you on the Dominion... but the Hirogen? Eek.

They never really explored what the Romulans were about apart from wanting to conquer the galaxy but never actually doing anything to accomplish that apart from the odd clever espionage operation or incursion here or there.
Nemesis then finished them off for me, I almost dozed off during some of the Romulan internal stuff in that movie.

To be fair, a lot of the 'Nemesis' stuff was Reman crap invented for the movie. I've always thought their warrior-stoic philosophy and might-makes-right mindset, combined with the idea of a spacefaring Rome, was intriguing. Also, it was always interesting to me that they might have been what the Vulcans had evolved into had the Vulcans not dedicated themselves to total logic.

In particular, the Romulans were to me a race just close enough to our heroes in philosophy yet different in specific fundamental ways that make them a paradox to have political relations with. I want to like them... but it's hard to agree with some of their philosophies.

But you're quite right, they never got proper exploration! I think if handled well, they could be quite interesting.

I would be interesting to see an alternate future like that where the Dominion won the war and control 3 out of the 4 quadrants

I'd enjoy that, too. They did a comic story about the Borg winning Wolf 359, so why not a Dominion-dominated AQ/BQ?

 

[Thor Damar]

^ I think I know how that alternative Dominion victory future will go (at least for some of the races in the Alpha and Beta quadrants)

The Cardassians: Wiped out

The Romulans: Also wiped out

The Humans: The same.

The Bajorians: See above.

As for the Klingons?: enslaved and then experimented on in order to create another race of genetically engineered soldiers. Otherwise Genocide as well.

I'm not sure about the others but there would be trillions dead at the end of it. God bless the Founders!

 

[PhoenixIreland]

^ I think I know how that alternative Dominion victory future will go (at least for some of the races in the Alpha and Beta quadrants)

The Cardassians: Wiped out

The Romulans: Also wiped out

The Humans: The same.

The Bajorians: See above.

As for the Klingons?: enslaved and then experimented on in order to create another race of genetically engineered soldiers. Otherwise Genocide as well.

I'm not sure about the others but there would be trillions dead at the end of it. God bless the Founders!

I don't know if genocide was the founders MO...that was jst one time when the leader threw a tantrum because she knew the war was lost.
The Karama and Dosi etc all survived and the Cardassians survived as members also, I think they just wanted control, not a total wipe out.

On the AGT future...if I was Riker I don't know if I could be in command of the D, with everyone gone it would not be the same and as an Admiral he'd be far more seperated from his crew than he was as XO or even as Captain of the Titan.

The future we got, with the E, Worf on DS9 then if you go into the novels Enterprise first officer, Captain Riker etc...is much much brighter.

But theres a big thing everyone seems to miss here...in the episode LaForge said it was 25 years since they'd left the D, so who knows how long into the future that was? It doesnt mean 25 years from AGT it could be 35 years after AGT so we don't really know if that timeline, or aspects of it anyway, is still possible, allow me to speculate wildly:

• Picard could finish as E captain and become an ambassador then contract the syndrome.
  
• Riker could get promoted after a few great moves on the Titan and become an Admiral, maybe before that Deanna dies on a mission and he becomes grief stricken and bitter, maybe the E is involved in the situation somehow and Picards injured so Worfs in command and Deanna getting killed is somehow Worfs fault leading to a Worf-Riker fued.
• (I suppose he could not get the D as a command ship but he COULD go through some kind of mid life crises like one of those guys at 60 who gets a red Ferrari and order a copy of the D with a third naccelle built )
  
• In a Spockesque way an incarnation of Data through B4 could return (renamed Data II like Snowball II in the Simpsons ) and get the Lucasion chair at Cambridge.
  
• Theres nothing to stop Beverly eventually getting promoted to Captain and getting the Pastur
  
• I havn't read past the first Titan novel but the Klingons after Martok could go a bit nuts and conquer the Romulan empire.

So for all we know, the "good outcome" we got in reality might be only a mild variation on the AGT timeline!

 

[Thor Damar]

To answer your question about the founders genocidal tenancies there have been several examples and hints scatted around DS9.
The 'female' founder tells Garak in Broken Link that Cardassia is dead and will die for the crime of attacking the Great Link, obviously they wanted to get as much use value out of the Cardassians beforehand.
Now given that the Romulans also participated then it's more than likely that they would stuffer the same fate. Weyoun stated to Dukat in Favour the Bold that the entire population of Earth would need to be wiped out in order to crush any resistance to Dominion rule.
And not forgetting the Telpaln blight of course.

Basically the Founders extended collective punishment to entire races.

(sorry about the off-topic rant, I'm obviously of the opinion that the Founders are Genocidal SOBs and feel that I need to prove it. I guess I get too fixated upon that point.)

To get slightly back on topic, what role would the Dominion have played in the AGT future?

 

[PhoenixIreland]

I forgot about those examples!

If the Fed and Romulans, Klingons are still around I'm thinking puppet leaders like Dukat in place in all them with a Vorta hovering over their shoulder the whole time.

They might try to engineer the Klingons to be a second solider race for them.
They might turn the Ferengi into an Alpha/Beta quadrant version of the Karama for them, Ferengi handle trade for them in these quadrants.
They'd probably just exterminate the Romulans and Humans I can't think of anything they could use them for.

One things for sure, Dominion winning the war would make the AGT future look like the bright one, Bev would not be cruising around in a medical ship without a care in the world and the rest would probably have died in the war or have been killed afterwards.

 

[Praetor]

So for all we know, the "good outcome" we got in reality might be only a mild variation on the AGT timeline!

That's actually what motivated me to start this thread in the first place.

And, regarding Cardassia's role in the Dominion, I think the Cardassians were an 'exception' because of their attack on the Founder homeworld - like the Romulans - were going to be eradicated. I think that generally the Dominion is literally an 'evil Federation' - one where the Founders purposefully subvert and use the races they encounter for their own goals, rewarding them in their own way, rather than everyone cooperating for the common good of all. I think the Founders see their actions as benevolent and their right. Frankly, I can't help but wonder if all of these years of worship haven't deluded them into believing in their own godhood.

But yeah, if the Dominion wins the war, I'd say Cardassia and Romulus are doomed.

 

[Myasishchev]

Basically the Founders extended collective punishment to entire races.

(sorry about the off-topic rant, I'm obviously of the opinion that the Founders are Genocidal SOBs and feel that I need to prove it. I guess I get too fixated upon that point.)

You know, I hadn't thought of it before, but that's an interesting pattern that emerged there--lacking individuality themselves, the Founders probably would believe in collective punishment. Ironic that the Founders would wipe out a species for the actions of a few as a matter of course because as far as they're concerned, Solids are just different models of the same production line, while the Federation (or most of them) wouldn't exterminate the Founders, even though the Great Link is in many ways an individual who deserved punishment or who was at least a valid target, because they couldn't help but see the Founders as individuals with individual rights to life.

As for the Romulans, they're potentially the most interesting enemy in Trek. Their Vulcan heritage alone suggests numerous possibilities that have barely been tapped.

I almost dozed off during some of the Romulan internal stuff in that movie.

What, in the first two minutes? Because like two Romulans with half a dozen lines between them show up after that. <_<