DId they screw up The Wrath Of Khan ?

[dammitjim6400]

Look..Greetings..I am known as a Trek PURIST..I believe ( and millions of others do to ) that Roddenberry was the one that did Star Trek RIGHT.
WARNING :This Thread IS NOT FOR JJ ABRAMS fans.
Lets forget about that inferior mess JJ Abrams made called Star Trek into (Stupidity)Darkness, a film that looks like it was written by two buffoons while smoking weed and playing video games...
Lets talk about the 1967 Star Trek episode Space Seed, Kirk and crew picked up renegades from the 20th century, Khanonian SIKH was an INDIAN and most of his crew from from the middle EAST..FAST FORWARD 20 years later KHanoonian Sikh is a crazy old man who seeks revenge with a ship full of white BLONDE Blue eyed teens that look like they all came from sunny California, where did they come from ? what happen to Khan's indian pride and middle eastern crew ? is this the way Roddenberry invision Khan ? Hollywood tend to mess with original ideas and concepts, let's talk,
OPINIONS ?

 

[Dukhat]

So you want opinions? Ok, then:

1. It's completely unnecessary to make statements about being a "Trek purist" or a "JJ Abrams hater" (which, looking at your previous posts, you've done before.) If you have a question or an issue about something, just state the question or issue. Using qualifiers like how you did immediately, and then following it up with some nonsensical statement about the new films that has absolutely nothing to do with the question you're asking, puts us all on our guard as to your real intentions here, and certainly doesn't endear us to want to answer your questions. Everyone here likes Star Trek (and the different aspects of it), whether it's TOS, TNG, or the Abrams films. In my opinion, I'd advise you to not make people annoyed with you by making disparaging comments about something they may like, just for the sake of making it. Hint: saying "This Thread IS NOT FOR JJ ABRAMS fans" doesn't cut it.

2. Nowhere in "Space Seed" was it stated that Khan's crew were mostly from the Middle East.

3. Khan had 70 people in his crew. How many of those people did we see in total in "Space Seed?" No more than five, tops? (and none of those five looked Middle Eastern to me.) How do you know that the others didn't vary in age and ethnicities? In TWOK, Khan states that what's left on Ceti Alpha were the survivors of that crew. Perhaps the youngest of his crew were able to deal with the conditions better than the rest, and that's why they survived?

4. BTW, the character's name is Khan Noonian Singh, not Khanonian Sikh. How can you claim to be a Star Trek "purist" and not even spell the name of its most famous villain correctly?

 

[Jeffe525]

...Space Seed, Kirk and crew picked up renegades from the 20th century, Khanonian SIKH was an INDIAN and most of his crew from from the middle EAST...

Who ever said Khan was Indian? I could be wrong, but I don't remember that being established in Space Seed, or TWoK.

And don't tell me his name is proof of ethnicity or nationality. Aside from the fact that people (and names) migrate, his very origin implies that we can't assume he was named by a traditional parent. For all we know, he could have been named after one of the scientists who worked in eugenics.

FAST FORWARD 20 years... a ship full of white BLONDE Blue eyed teens that look like they all came from sunny California,...

As mentioned, only a few of the crew were actually shown in Space Seed. Some of them were blond.

where did they come from ?

From the Botany Bay (or maybe from parents who were crew on the Botany Bay). What about that TWoK scene was confusing?

...is this the way Roddenberry invision Khan ?

Roddenberry didn't envision TWoK. For all intents and purposes, he had nothing to do with the writing or production and he disagreed with many decisions made by newcomer director Nicholas Meyers.

Perhaps the movie should have started with the advisory: Warning, this movie is not for Trek Purists!

OPINIONS ?

To answer your original question: No, they did not screw up TWoK. You're premise involves a minute detail that has no real bearing on the plot or the quality of the film.

However, I find it interesting that you didn't instead focus on the so-well known blunder dialog between Chekhov and Khan in the Botany Bay scene. That oversight (still, a relatively insignificant boo-boo) had much more potential to derail the story for the fans IMO.

 

[Christopher]

Who ever said Khan was Indian? I could be wrong, but I don't remember that being established in Space Seed, or TWoK.

Upon seeing him in his cryogenic chamber, Marla McGivers said "From the northern India area, I'd guess. Probably a Sikh." Although the latter part makes no sense, given that he didn't have long hair and a beard and wasn't wearing any of the things that Sikh men are supposed to carry.

And don't tell me his name is proof of ethnicity or nationality. Aside from the fact that people (and names) migrate, his very origin implies that we can't assume he was named by a traditional parent.

In fact, Khan's name is a total ethnic hodgepodge, because '60s TV writers treated all of Asia as one big interchangeable mass. Singh is the standard Sikh male surname, but Khan is generally a Muslim surname (not a given name) derived from a Mongolian and Central Asian title, and Noonien is apparently a Chinese name. The show's researcher Kellam DeForest actually suggested a more validly Sikh name and appearance, but his advice was disregarded.

Oh, and while we're on the subject... We all know that India isn't in the Middle East, right?

As mentioned, only a few of the crew were actually shown in Space Seed. Some of them were blond.

"Space Seed" established that his crew was, in Scotty's words, "Mixed types. Western, mid-European, Latin, Oriental." In more modern terms, a multiethnic group.

The bigger problem is that they'd been stranded on the planet for 15 years but everyone but Khan was played by a twentysomething actor. That just doesn't add up.

However, I find it interesting that you didn't instead focus on the so-well known blunder dialog between Chekhov and Khan in the Botany Bay scene. That oversight (still, a relatively insignificant boo-boo) had much more potential to derail the story for the fans IMO.

Which is not a blunder, because Chekov could easily have been on the crew in some other post before he was transferred to bridge duty -- like how Riley was transferred up to the bridge from engineering.

There are many, many far bigger plot holes in TWOK, but I've gone into them in depth in other threads, and I've had a frustrating enough day already, so I'd rather not think about them now.

 

[Dukhat]

The bigger problem is that they'd been stranded on the planet for 15 years but everyone but Khan was played by a twentysomething actor. That just doesn't add up.

Again, not knowing the age range of those 70 people, we could conjecture that the survivors we saw in TWOK were preteens or even younger during "Space Seed."

 

[Jeffe525]

Oh, and while we're on the subject... We all know that India isn't in the Middle East, right?

Yes, I am aware of this. But thanks for pointing it out to make it clear for everyone.

The bigger problem is that they'd been stranded on the planet for 15 years but everyone but Khan was played by a twentysomething actor. That just doesn't add up.

You're right, a minor detail flaw. I think Meyers just wanted to make sure that Khan was clearly seen as the dominant figure in the group. Directors today may be called lazy for something like that, but in 1982... eh.

However, I find it interesting that you didn't instead focus on the so-well known blunder dialog between Chekhov and Khan in the Botany Bay scene. That oversight (still, a relatively insignificant boo-boo) had much more potential to derail the story for the fans IMO.

Which is not a blunder, because Chekov could easily have been on the crew in some other post before he was transferred to bridge duty -- like how Riley was transferred up to the bridge from engineering.

Come on, Chris. I know a retcon explain-away when I see it. You can't tell me that if the discrepancy was caught in preproduction, they wouldn't have at least slipped a little explanation into the dialog. Maybe not, but Meyer's himself admitted it was an oversight at the time.

 

[Christopher]

^Of course it's a retcon. But it's a much easier thing to explain away than idiocy like the Reliant crew not even being able to count the number of planets in the system. No -- no, I said I wasn't going to get into that one again.

 

[FormerLurker]

I keep saying, the Ceti Alpha system probably had some twenty planets or so. If one blew up, well, it has a lot of others so the rest won't be lonely. And any ship going there to find the desert planet will find the desert planet if it still exists. If it blew up, and another planet took its place as the desert planet then no biggie, right? I mean, what's the worst that could happen? It's not like someone dumped a bunch of escaped eugenic supermen on the new desert planet before it became the new desert planet, right?

 

[scotpens]

Of course, as we all know, planets spontaneously explode all the time!

(Yeah, the plot of TWOK is as full of holes as Blackburn, Lancashire. But it's still a fun movie.)

 

[Robert D. Robot]

OPINIONS ?

Okay....

Look..Greetings..I am known as a Trek PURIST..I believe ( and millions of others do to ) that Roddenberry was the one that did Star Trek RIGHT.
WARNING :This Thread IS NOT FOR JJ ABRAMS fans.
Lets forget about that inferior mess JJ Abrams made called Star Trek into (Stupidity)Darkness, a film that looks like it was written by two buffoons while smoking weed and playing video games...

What a ridiculous, insulting way to start a discussion! Why would being a JJ Abrams fan preclude a person from having an interesting opinion or insightful comments about TOS or TWOK? What an arrogant, narrow-minded point of view! Contrary to the high regard the OP claims to have for The Great Bird of the Galaxy, I assume that being a purist allows one to somehow reject the concept of IDIC, which Roddenberry apparently was not RIGHT about.

I have been watching and enjoying Star Trek since Day One, and I'm laughing at the "superior intellect" that purists seem to feel that they have when it comes to appreciating and judging the various series and movies. I remain thankful that I haven't put myself into that cramped box.

 

[Jeffe525]

^Of course it's a retcon. But it's a much easier thing to explain away than idiocy like the Reliant crew not even being able to count the number of planets in the system. No -- no, I said I wasn't going to get into that one again.

Haha! It seems like you have some issues on the tip of your tongue and I'm almost inclined to push you to spill it. But I won't

Well look at the Reliant. Capt. Terrell looked like he was annoyed to be there and his first officer was Chekov. I mean, it's Chekov.

So with those two running the show, how competent do you think the rest of the crew is going to be. They just followed what the computer said and went to the coordinates where Ceti-Alpha 6 was supposed to be and bam! they found a planet. WTF do they care about anything else that might not add up, like that anteroid belt that didn't used to be there. Who cares, "Not my job," they'd say.

 

[Terok Nor]

Until I came to this forum I used to think it was a fact that Khan was supposed to be Indian. Just this past week I've learned that there are many factors which make it unlikely he actually was. Most of them discussed in this and another thread. As for the rest of the Eugenics crew being Indian that was never stated anywhere. Those who appeared in Space Seed may not be the ones we see in Wrath Of Khan as we didn't see all of the Botany Bay's crew. It seems likely many of those left on Ceti Alpha V would have died due to the extreme conditions. If it's supposed to be 15 years later I don't think it's too much of a stretch to assume genetically engineered humans look good for their age. Khan himself looked great even with the white hair.

 

[Trekkin]

Opinion?

I love it when people use ALLCAPS for random WORDS! It makes the whole post FUN to read ALOUD!

The serious answer? Maybe this Khanonian SIKH had all those details attached to him, and they don't mesh with the details given about the main villain of TWOK. Luckily TWOK was about Khan, and none of those 'facts' fit his what we saw of his character in Space Seed... outside of maybe Khan being the worst Sikh ever.

And holy shit-balls were Judson Scott and co were not teenagers. Considering what most of them held as a day-job, it would be downright squicky if they were.

 

[Green Shirt]

(Yeah, the plot of TWOK is as full of holes as Blackburn, Lancashire. But it's still a fun movie.)

4,000 holes in the plot? Let's try to name them all.

 

[at Quark's]

Look..Greetings..I am known as a Trek PURIST..I believe ( and millions of others do to ) that Roddenberry was the one that did Star Trek RIGHT.
WARNING :This Thread IS NOT FOR JJ ABRAMS fans.
Lets forget about that inferior mess JJ Abrams made called Star Trek into (Stupidity)Darkness, a film that looks like it was written by two buffoons while smoking weed and playing video games...
Lets talk about the 1967 Star Trek episode Space Seed, Kirk and crew picked up renegades from the 20th century, Khanonian SIKH was an INDIAN and most of his crew from from the middle EAST..FAST FORWARD 20 years later KHanoonian Sikh is a crazy old man who seeks revenge with a ship full of white BLONDE Blue eyed teens that look like they all came from sunny California, where did they come from ? what happen to Khan's indian pride and middle eastern crew ? is this the way Roddenberry invision Khan ? Hollywood tend to mess with original ideas and concepts, let's talk,
OPINIONS ?

I think a real Star Trek purist should accept only "the cage" as true Trek, and none of these ridiculous changes we see in that three-year heretical series they dared to mention "Star Trek"!

 

[Christopher]

^No, they should only accept the original pitch document and outline! Pike and the Enterprise? Blasphemy! It's the adventures of Captain April of the Yorktown, Number One, Jose Ortegas, Phillip Boyce, "Colt," and Lieutenant Spock, the red-skinned Martian who feeds through a metal plate in his chest!

 

[Warped9]

TWOK is an ideal example of when a film is sufficiently entertaining to a lot of people they will forgive and handwave away all kinds of stuff in it.

 

[Trekkin]

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's more 'I think this movie has more positive elements than bad.' The sheer 'wheeee!' factor is just one part of it.

 

[Warped9]

^No, they should only accept the original pitch document and outline! Pike and the Enterprise? Blasphemy! It's the adventures of Captain April of the Yorktown, Number One, Jose Ortegas, Phillip Boyce, "Colt," and Lieutenant Spock, the red-skinned Martian who feeds through a metal plate in his chest!

The character of Jose Ortegas is the earliest inkling of a multi-ethnic crew, but then GR changed the name to Jose Tyler and cast one of the whitest looking dudes you could find.

There's nothing really wrong with the name of April, but it is softer than names for command leads that would follw.

Pike
Kirk
Picard
Sisko

 

[-Brett-]

Khanonian SIKH .... KHanoonian Sikh

I would think a self professed "purist" would know what the character's name is. Or is this just that internet trend where it's apparently fashionable to intentionally butcher proper names in nonsensical ways because ... reasons?

Personally, I think if you're going to ridicule a name it should at least be done in a way that makes sense and is funny. Maybe I'm old fashioned that way.