Did Sisko create himself, Bajoran religion and maybe the entire prime universe?

[Jayson1]

I was thinking about the pilot. When Sisko meets the Prophets they don't know about him or humans or about linear time. This is because they are basically the concept of infinity with consciousness. Sisko teaches them about these things. When we see the Prophets in later seasons not only do they seem to be more aware of the universe we find out that they do care about the Bajorans and they even arranged for Sisko's birth.

I got a theory is once they learned about these things that means they did become more linear and they used the knowledge they gained from Sisko at a early time in their exsitence to create him so he can come someday and meet them to teach him about these things.It goes beyond just making sure he is born. It means having to shape the entire universe in away to make sure he someday will get to that wormhole in season 1.
It's basically a never ending loop in that they create him so he can influence them so they will create him. It's also possible that the Prime universe was at one point different but when they altered it everything changed. Maybe Benny Russell was Sisko in the original timeline which would make it both real but also no longer real anymore.

Jason

 

[Tenacity]

Interesting idea.

 

[Jono]

Prophets haven't shown anywhere near the power to shape the entire universe. Hell, they couldn't even lock the door to the prison they created properly.

 

[Jayson1]

Prophets haven't shown anywhere near the power to shape the entire universe. Hell, they couldn't even lock the door to the prison they created properly.

Yes but the Pagh Wraiths are also prophets so you would think both sides are equal in power for the most part. There is also the fact that they may not be showing us all they can do because if you are manipulating time and you know the future you might fix things or allow things to happen just so things happen the exact way you want them to happen.
For example I don't think it was a mistake that the poet who came from the past who Sisko was going to let become Emissary was a accident. I think he was there so Sisko would finally acept the title. Not to mention the timeline was altered yet Kira didn't know the poet had finished his stories. Somehow there memories stayed the same even if things had been changed.

Jason

 

[Spot261]

Yes but the Pagh Wraiths are also prophets so you would think both sides are equal in power for the most part.

Most prison guards are approximately the equal of their inmates. That does not allow the inmate to force the jail doors open.

There is also the fact that they may not be showing us all they can do because if you are manipulating time and you know the future you might fix things or allow things to happen just so things happen the exact way you want them to happen.

The same argument could apply to anyone, they could have all manner of unseen talents. Nameless lab technician number three on the ENT might well have god like powers, the security guy on the left in such and such an episode might be the most talented ukelele player in all of recorded history, but we can only go by what we see on screen. As portrayed the Prophets are limited, they are beings of our universe, no matter how alien their experience of it may be, they are not supreme beings.

Also, if Sisko was responsible for changing their perceptions in such a comprehensively non linear way, surely they would already have the benefit of those lessons when they met him. Surely, in fact, they would have learnt of linear existence from the Bajorans long before (after? during? slightly to the temporal left?)

 

[marlboro]

Very cool theory. I like it.

PS
FWIW, the whole Benny Russell thing has never made much sense to me. I just don't get it at all.

 

[Triskelion]

"You ain't supposed to."
- Gladys Knight

 

[Voth commando1]

I saw this on Reddit's Daystrom Institute so I assume the OP is the same.

Answer: no there is no evidence the prophets or Sisko wield such power and if that was the case the show certainly would have shown it.

The prophets can manipulate time, people's minds and morality and can even manipulate whole timelines(Ascension?) but there is no evidence they created the universe or that they have shaped everything in existence down to the last sub-atomic particle.

 

[Jayson1]

My counter argument when it comes to just how powerful the Prophets are is that I agree they are not invinsible. For starters they can actually die which is something a God as we usually think of a God can't do. Thing is even the Q can die and they might be even more powerful than the prophets.

Trek has other almost invinisble aliens such as the Metrons,Dowd, and the ones who slipped my mind at the moment that stoped a war with the klingons on TOS. I think it's possible that these aliens have power that is so strong that they can change the universe even with the fact that they have some limits.

Even a human who can travel back in time almost has that kind power simply by altering the past. The prophets not only have that ability but they are smarter than most aliens but the fact that they don't live a liner exsitence means time is not just something they live in but is part of their very nature. They can change the past and have instant knowledge of what will happen because they also exsit in the future at the same time,

Also they did arrange for Sisko to be born but if they don't have control over the universe it means Sisko isn't guarnted to go to Bajor and become the emisarry. He could have just as easily died by the Borg at Wolf 359 or died in a random mission. For it to work they would also have to arrange things so he will be able to find the wormhole and help the Bajoran people.

Just look at the mirror universe. The Bajorans there don't even worship the Prophets as Gods. They didn't even know about the wormhole. That could simply happened in that universe because their Sisko was not created to find them and become a emisarry.

Jason

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Prophets are only nonlinear when they are in the Celestial Temple.

They didn't force Sisko to discover the wormhole but they had enough knowledge of the future that they knew that if Sisko was born, the stochastic progression of his life would result in him discovering the wormhole.

 

[Jayson1]

The Prophets are only nonlinear when they are in the Celestial Temple.

They didn't force Sisko to discover the wormhole but they had enough knowledge of the future that they knew that if Sisko was born, the stochastic progression of his life would result in him discovering the wormhole.

If they knew about the future though and knew that SIsko would someday find the wormhole just by creating him, then howcome they didn't seem to comprehend the concept of linear time in the pilot?
Also what would even motivate them to send orbs or arrange for SIsko to be born because if all they understand is non liner time how would they even know that there is something beyond the Celestial Temple. Something from outside must have made them become aware of a bigger universe but it would also have to be something that makes them take intrest in the Bajoran people. For whatever reason they care about the Bajorans and seem to be pretty indifferent to all the other stuff in the Alpha Quadrant.

Jason

 

[JirinPanthosa]

If they knew about the future though and knew that SIsko would someday find the wormhole just by creating him, then howcome they didn't seem to comprehend the concept of linear time in the pilot?
Also what would even motivate them to send orbs or arrange for SIsko to be born because if all they understand is non liner time how would they even know that there is something beyond the Celestial Temple. Something from outside must have made them become aware of a bigger universe but it would also have to be something that makes them take intrest in the Bajoran people. For whatever reason they care about the Bajorans and seem to be pretty indifferent to all the other stuff in the Alpha Quadrant.

Jason

To the Prophets, all the encounters in the wormhole happened simultaneously. The contact with Sisko was the formative event that caused them to send out the orbs and create Sisko.

 

[Voth commando1]

The prophets can be killed by mere mortals, only the Q(so far as we know going by both TNG and VOY) can be killed by Q.

 

[Prax]

I must say, Jayson, this is a good thread.

Does this make Sisko like Jesus/God? I know the analogy is already intentionally there on the surface, but if we attempt to take it to a deeper philosophical conclusion, what might the implications be? Sisko is (a)god. Sisko was born of a woman who was "overshadowed" by one of/a prophet. As soon as Sisko was born, the spirit of the prophets left her. He came to corporeal existence to fulfill a purpose.

Was there ever any other Emissaries? Or was Sisko the only one?

An Emissary is someone who is sent on a special/important mission. Jesus was both an Emissary, and a King.

A prophet is a messenger of God.

An angel is a messenger of God. The word "Angel" simply means "messenger." Angels deliver messages to people to tell them the will of God.

The prophets give Sisko messages telling him the will of the prophets.

God, like DS9's "prophets" exist outside of space and time.

Does "God" direct the prophets, and is He also Sisko?

Sisko defeated the Pah-Wraiths. or the power of the Pah-wraiths(Satan, which means "The Adversary" or the power of Satan, power of hell, etc) by sacrificing his life. He then shed his corporeal existence and gained his inheritance in heaven.

Setting all that aside, another good thread topic similar to this would be about Odo. I'm sure he is based on some legend or ancient pagan mythology. I haven't thought about it too much before. Odo, returns to his people(which rule as gods) as the "Rightful King."

 

[Jayson1]

To the Prophets, all the encounters in the wormhole happened simultaneously. The contact with Sisko was the formative event that caused them to send out the orbs and create Sisko.

I agree with this but what I am saying is that without knowledge about linear time or even about anything outside of the wormhole they proably wouldn't have done any of this, including arranging Sisko to be born. If someone had stoped Sisko from discovering the wormhole, such as a time traveler from the future then it would have changed everything to where there would be no Prophet based religion or even a Sisko in the universe unless Sisko's dad still fell in love with the human women who was inhabited by the Sara Prophet which is what I think happened in the mirror universe, explaining his exsitence their along with the fact that those Bajorans don't know about the Prophets.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

The prophets can be killed by mere mortals, only the Q(so far as we know going by both TNG and VOY) can be killed by Q.

Actually I think it is possible to kill the Q with a few ways.
1 If they become mortal you can kill them like the aliens in "Deja Q" would have done to Q.
2 If you can get hold of a Q weapons like in the civil war fantasy Q ep on "Voyager."
3 Time Travel. In "Deathwish" we find out that the Q's imortality wasn't always the case. They talked about how great it was in the beginning and only after a time it started to feel stagnate which is why Quinn wanted to kill himself.
To me that means if you could find the Q at a point of time before they evolved you could erase their entire future of becoming all powerful beings. I even used to have this idea about how cool it would be if the Enterprise encountered the Q race before they became imortal and you had John Delancie play a pre-imortal Q and see what he was like at the very beginning of his life.
4 Humans might someday evolve past the Q which they see as a threat which is one of the reason Q wanted to make Riker a Q. It makes me wonder if the Q's powers or overstated and that their might be other aliens just as powerful in the universe.

Jason

 

[Jayson1]

I must say, Jayson, this is a good thread.

Does this make Sisko like Jesus/God? I know the analogy is already intentionally there on the surface, but if we attempt to take it to a deeper philosophical conclusion, what might the implications be? Sisko is (a)god. Sisko was born of a woman who was "overshadowed" by one of/a prophet. As soon as Sisko was born, the spirit of the prophets left her. He came to corporeal existence to fulfill a purpose.

Was there ever any other Emissaries? Or was Sisko the only one?

An Emissary is someone who is sent on a special/important mission. Jesus was both an Emissary, and a King.

A prophet is a messenger of God.

An angel is a messenger of God. The word "Angel" simply means "messenger." Angels deliver messages to people to tell them the will of God.

The prophets give Sisko messages telling him the will of the prophets.

God, like DS9's "prophets" exist outside of space and time.

Does "God" direct the prophets, and is He also Sisko?

Sisko defeated the Pah-Wraiths. or the power of the Pah-wraiths(Satan, which means "The Adversary" or the power of Satan, power of hell, etc) by sacrificing his life. He then shed his corporeal existence and gained his inheritance in heaven.

Setting all that aside, another good thread topic similar to this would be about Odo. I'm sure he is based on some legend or ancient pagan mythology. I haven't thought about it too much before. Odo, returns to his people(which rule as gods) as the "Rightful King."

I see Sisko not just as a Jesus methphor but also a explantion to the question of what creates a God. The answer might be that God creates himself and that is what Sisko is for. Without Sisko the prophets are just a powerful force of nature like infinity. They are capable of being self aware but Sisko makes that potential become reality.
My guess on what it was like to be a Prophet before Sisko which is something that is self aware but also not aware of linear thinking must be like having never ending dreams. You are aware of yourself but their is a fog to your thinking and the things you think about don't always have a narrative or even a beginning or end to them.
Sisko was like a unknown intrusion that made them take their first linear thought by simply trying to understand him. Once they understood him they understood themselves and that means they saw that they had a role to play in making it happen which is why they sent the probes and created Sisko. It all was done to make sure Sisko get's to wormhole someday to fulfill his destiny.

Jason

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I got a theory is once they learned about these things that means they did become more linear and they used the knowledge they gained from Sisko at a early time in their exsitence to create him so he can come someday and meet them to teach him about these things.It goes beyond just making sure he is born. It means having to shape the entire universe in away to make sure he someday will get to that wormhole in season 1.

I disagree with how you are conceptualizing this. Like the three dimensional beings in Abbott's Flatland, it is the Prophets who see the wholeness of a thing, but it is we, confined temporally, who have a confined perspective. If it's possible to exist in a way that one has access to all points in time simultaneously (something the Q did not have), then then notion of the passing of time is something relevant only to those whose movements through time are constrained. Sisko giving impetus to his own birth only makes sense to us because that is the only way we are capable of perceiving it.

 

[Voth commando1]

Actually I think it is possible to kill the Q with a few ways.
1 If they become mortal you can kill them like the aliens in "Deja Q" would have done to Q.
2 If you can get hold of a Q weapons like in the civil war fantasy Q ep on "Voyager."
3 Time Travel. In "Deathwish" we find out that the Q's imortality wasn't always the case. They talked about how great it was in the beginning and only after a time it started to feel stagnate which is why Quinn wanted to kill himself.
To me that means if you could find the Q at a point of time before they evolved you could erase their entire future of becoming all powerful beings. I even used to have this idea about how cool it would be if the Enterprise encountered the Q race before they became imortal and you had John Delancie play a pre-imortal Q and see what he was like at the very beginning of his life.
4 Humans might someday evolve past the Q which they see as a threat which is one of the reason Q wanted to make Riker a Q. It makes me wonder if the Q's powers or overstated and that their might be other aliens just as powerful in the universe.

Jason

I'm not so sure about that, for one-I don't take Quinn's word regarding the Q's origins at face value, two if a Q becomes human or mortal in any other manner than they are simply no longer Q.

Third I'm pretty sure it's not possible for mortals to wield Q weapons.

There power isn't overstated unless you have a revisionist interpretation of their episodes.

Q states he was married to his Lady Q 4 Billion years in the past.

If you ask me they are the closest things to gods in the Trekverse.

 

[JeffinOakland]

I think you're giving the Trek brain trust (Piller & Berman) and the scriptwriters far too much credit. It's a great tv show but still "just" a tv show.