Did she lie, or just have no follow through?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Guy Gardener, Jun 14, 2010.

?

When Kathy said she would help murder Starfleet Officers...

  1. was she lying/bluffing?

    7 vote(s)
    53.8%
  2. telling the truth, but the beasties didn't collect on her promise?

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  3. Telling the truth, and later she handed over the Equinox 5 to be eaten by the beasties for their cri

    5 vote(s)
    38.5%
  1. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In Equinox the space beasties agreed not to execute Janeway's crew if she would bounty hunt Ransoms crew for them, and then deliver them for execution. It turns out that possibly the space beasties didn't cotton on to the fact that the survivors of the Equinox then assimilated into Voyagers crew because they're morons, or have no attention span, which seems unlikely considering how long and well they bared down on Equinox, but in any case Janeway got lucky they didn't make her hold up her end of the deal not that we can't be sure that Janeway didn't hand over the Equinox 5 shortly after the credits rolled when the space beasties arrived to cash in on their deal with Janeway, because in all honesty, I never did see them Equinox 5 people again after that episode.

    By the way, that's murder or attempted murder but certainly conspiracy to commit murder, even if Janeway was only Bluffing which is just a fancy way of saying she was lying, and it's really no different than when the folkes from 40 days in the Space Lake wanted to execute Tom for terrorism but in reverse that Janeway wouldn't let them put his head on the chopping block and stuck to her integrity to work against the intentions of the Prime Directive/Non Interference Policy, not that she didn't allow some other aliens to put Tom on trial for Murder when they could have just transported him up and ran because sometimes her crew is accountable and other times they are not.

    Wow, it's like she doesn't consistently respond to almost entirely the same stimulus.
     
  2. teacake

    teacake Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    "Telling the truth, and later she handed over the Equinox 5 to be eaten by the beasties for their crimes."

    And very tasty they were too.
     
  3. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    I agree. They were toast as soon as the cameras stopped rolling.
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They "were toast" or they "were on Toast"?
     
  5. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    Both, probably.
     
  6. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Great. Let's talk about "how to serve man".
     
  7. Deckerd

    Deckerd Fleet Arse Premium Member

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    Well scrubbed on a bed of feathers.

    No wait

    that's not what you ..
     
  8. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    You're reading too much into my signature.

    These guys would have followed Equinox all the way to earth, but it seems that if they just "sold" the ship, they would have been fine and the beasties would have had no idea how to follow the new trial they were leaving until they started killing again.

    Could these things have made a dent against the Federation, or would they just have ended up being farmed as a cattle? if ransom thought the Federation could use these things as fuel and sleep at night with that on his conscience, then maybe it wasn't that they were so smart to be following equinox that they were being lead and baited toward the Earth?

    Voyager would have been littered with the corpses of these buggers after the combat died down, but then she decided not to use the dead as feul in the Next Emanation, so she already passed this test of ethical absurdity... However Neelix planned on using the coughed up skeletons from that big snake on the basics world for tools, and they could have as easily been people and not animals. If they had stayed long enough, would they have used Hogan's hipbone for a plough share?
     
  9. JanewayRulz!

    JanewayRulz! Vice Admiral Admiral

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    She didn't lie, she handed over "The Equinox". She didn't hand over Lessing etc. and the aliens didn't come looking for them. The aliens just wanted to exact justice on that ship and whichever beings were in that ship.

    It made me think of a line from Michener's "Caravans". If a rider's camel gets angry with its rider, the rider stood in front of the animal, disrobed and let the camel tear the clothes to pieces. After that the camel was willing to work with its rider w/o a problem.
     
  10. Itachi

    Itachi Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It's been for freakin ever since i've seen that episode. But I imagine Janeway was just bluffing. If she let starfleet run her life so much i doubt she would have been able to kill another starfleet officer.
     
  11. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    She didn't have the power to say no to these aliens because they were too powerful. You understand that? If they had come back and demanded the Equinox 5, and Janeway told them to go screw themselves, even if it took a few years, they would keep attacking and wear down voyagers reserves until all of them were dead.

    Janeways only real alternative was to kill them herself "humanely" (Like she did in scientific method when she drove Voyager into a sun rather than be playthings to a bunch of assholes.)or try to hide them off Voyager where of course they would be free range for the space beasties to pick off.

    If she was lying/bluffing, then she was gambling that were idiots or incompetent or basically the animals no smarter than cattle deserving as much respect as herd beasts as Ransom had given them, planning to take advantage of their "good nature" which fortunately it would seem that they were.

    You all understand that Starfleet Captains who lie, who cannot take responsibility for their actions, should not get to remain Starfleet captains for too much longer thereafter?
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And when they told Tuvok to go screw himself for suggesting the alternative punishment of "denying the equinox crew of their freedom"?

    This is just TNG Justice again except that the Federation Citizen did a little more than "walk on the grass" and the Starfleet captain didn't take a lick of stock over the fact that she needed to defying every convention she believed in as screwed the Prime Directive.

    Remember when Icheb was handing himself over for execution supposedly for some minor crime, and he explained it away by stating "Captain janeway taught me to respect the laws of other cultures."?

    That just makes me laugh.
     
  13. SpyOne

    SpyOne Captain Captain

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    In this instance, I think Janeway was simply lying. She tried to negotiate with the space beasties, but they weren't particularly receptive, so she decided to lie to them to gain a tactical advantage. She had no intention of handing the Equinox crew over to them, although she DID intend to punish them herself. She also intended to fight the space beasties off once she had recovered the Equinox crew.

    Yes, Janeway had every intention of stepping into a fight she could have walked away from, a fight she might lose, just for the privilege of putting some people on trial for their crimes, followed by possibly executing them herself (or at the very least feeding them and keeping them in prison when supplies are already running short). Yes that seems a bit nonsensical, but sometimes that kind of thing really does matter. My mom used to say that she really admired how the Israelis handled Nazi war criminals: they would take them to Israel (a place filled with people who hate them and want them dead), they would keep them safe there, they would give them a scrupulously fair trial, and then they would execute them.

    I suspect that Janeway was expecting that the beasties might be a bit more accessible to reason once the Equinox was no longer killing beasties to go fast. As it is she lucked out that killing Ransom sated their bloodlust.

    That Janeway's stand on an issue might fluctuate from episode to episode is hardly news.
     
  14. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That was very well though out and well said. Though it does point our one of Janeway's gratest faults. She expects unreasonable people to become reasonable given the opportunity to ruminate over her point of view. She expects inconsistency in others it seems.
     
  15. kimc

    kimc Coffee Mod Admiral

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    However, those you deem "unreasonable" may be thinking at the same time that you're the unreasonable one. Assuming reasonableness is part of diplomacy. That doesn't always work out though as any casual glance backwards at history shows.
     
  16. Udat

    Udat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    All the pretty options....
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    As the pilot showed, when she told Maje Jabin that any civilised person would agree with her point of view, which he took an affront, beleiving she was calling him uncivilized because he clearly did not agree with her point of view, which she didn't realize she was doing because she lost control of the language she was using.

    Diplomacy is about deciding what to surrender so you don't have to fight, while being full ready to fight. Telling people what they have to do to make you happy or you'll shoot them dead is something else entirely.
     
  18. kathrynJaneway2

    kathrynJaneway2 Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    she was bluffing, by lieing she was protecting her crew but was also working a plan for the equinox crew as well. what ransom and crew did was cruel and unforgiveable of most ppl standards. but the beasties got what they wanted which was to stop ransom and ship.
     
  19. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Imagine someone killed your family and your neighbours and hundreds of people you only knew of by reputation... Now imagine that some one in authority tried to calm you down by saying "look, we blew up their car, that's good enough, your need for retribution and vengeance has to be sated. Cool?"

    I suppose it's the same as taking away a drunks drivers driving license after she mows down someone's kids on a zebra crossing and calling it a just punishment... Which does happen all the time.

    At best this should have bought janeway some time, if she was lying before she could have properly resolved the entire clusterfuck.

    You know the real bitch of the thing?

    Starfleet, being as supposedly super ethical as we think it is, egged on by it's enemies belly laughing at their faded principles perhaps, would actually have to, after janeways court martial, pack up whatever remained of the Equinox 5, and spend 30 years carting them back to beastie space for execution because they would have to stand by the oral extradition treaty Janeway created that day because she took no official remedy to reverse it from their view point. In fact, if they still had grievance with Voyager, Janeway signed her own death warrant that Starfleet has to honour and law governing these beasties with as much respect as it does the laws governing itself, that they can request the deaths of any one they're pissy with.
     
  20. seekertwo

    seekertwo Commander Red Shirt

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    So....Janeway gave the aliens their clothes so the EQ's crew had to travel back to the AQ naked?.... :wtf: