Did Saavik tell Kirk about the Protomatter?

[JonnyQuest037]

This was a question that popped into my head while thinking about The Search For Spock today -- We see David Marcus tell Saavik that he used protomatter in the Genesis Matrix, which is why the planet that formed out of the Mutara Nebula became dangerously unstable. David also says that his mother knew nothing about it (Which I suppose raises the question of how she didn't detect it, but whatever).

My question is this: Do you think that Saavik ever told Admiral Kirk or Carol Marcus exactly why Genesis didn't work? You'd think as a scientist she'd want to pass along the information for research purposes, but then again she took three months just to tell Kirk that his son died most bravely, so who knows?

I also wonder if any of the data that Grissom collected on Genesis survived. I'd normally say that most of it would've been lost with the ship when the Klingons destroyed it, but considering Captain Esteban's habit of checking with Starfleet before he did anything, maybe not. At the very least there should have been some data on Saavik's tricorder, and I'd imagine that Starfleet and the Federation would've been very eager to know exactly what happened to Genesis and why. All Kirk & crew heard was David telling his father over a communicator, "I'm sorry, sir -- Genesis doesn't work," but he never got into why.

So what do you think? Did Saavik tell anyone about the protomatter, or did she let David's secret die with him? Was this question ever covered in any of the novels?

 

[Leto_II]

I think the novelization has Saavik telling Kirk about the protomatter-issue (right after the Bird of Prey escapes the planet, but before they arrive at Vulcan), and there are also some Enterprise-E-era TNG novels that deal with the aftermath of Genesis and its legacy (including protomatter too, IIRC).

 

[BillJ]

My question is this: Do you think that Saavik ever told Admiral Kirk or Carol Marcus exactly why Genesis didn't work? You'd think as a scientist she'd want to pass along the information for research purposes, but then again she took three months just to tell Kirk that his son died most bravely, so who knows?

I think she could've passed on the information regarding Genesis without directly telling Kirk what happened. I imagine there is multiple Starfleet installations on/near Vulcan or she could've reported via subspace. Can't imagine she wasn't debriefed after what happened.

Not sure what purpose it would've served to tell Kirk his kid was a cheat?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Not sure what purpose it would've served to tell Kirk his kid was a cheat?

Who knows? Maybe Kirk had found out about the protomatter thing, became a bit disillusioned with David changing the rules as he did, and Saavik's "David died most bravely. He saved Spock. He saved us all. ...I thought you should know," was an attempt by Saavik to redeem his son a bit in Kirk's eyes. That interpretation certainly puts a different spin on that scene.

 

[Marsden]

What the hell is protomatter and where can I buy some?

If it's easy to find, why aren't the Romulans using torpedoes on enemy planets?

Maybe, it's red matter, it's just the wrong color, right?

 

[TwoJakes]

Not sure what purpose it would've served to tell Kirk his kid was a cheat?

Because it's the truth?

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Maybe, it's red matter, it's just the wrong color, right?

Oh, that's an interesting thought! I never thought to connect the two before. But we know so little about them both, why not?

 

[BillJ]

Because it's the truth?

Even Vulcans have discretion.

"Hey Admiral, your kid that saved my life, he cheated and used Protomatter. Just thought you'd want to know."

She said what needed to be said, no need to twist the knife on Kirk's grief.

 

[sbk1234]

This was a question that popped into my head while thinking about The Search For Spock today -- We see David Marcus tell Saavik that he used protomatter in the Genesis Matrix, which is why the planet that formed out of the Mutara Nebula became dangerously unstable. David also says that his mother knew nothing about it (Which I suppose raises the question of how she didn't detect it, but whatever).

I remember David saying the line, "I used protomater in the Genesis matrix..."
He refers to himself in the singular, the inference being that he was the only scientist responsible for the use of protomater, but it doesn't mean none of the others knew about it.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

David also says that his mother knew nothing about it (Which I suppose raises the question of how she didn't detect it, but whatever).

It's likely that Carol oversaw the administrative aspects of the project and delegated most of the day-to-day work to the other scientists. Given the sensitive nature of the project, it's also likely that everyone was vetted extensively before being allowed to participate, so she had no reason to think that anyone--much less her own son--would act irresponsibly where the project was concerned.

--Captain Terrell

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Maybe the protomatter was a very last-minute addition on David's part, so there wasn't time for Carol or the other Regula-1 scientists to detect it? Like, maybe he added it into the matrix the same afternoon that Khan arrived and started torturing people? I don't think that contradicts anything in either TWOK or TSFS.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Even Vulcans have discretion.

"Hey Admiral, your kid that saved my life, he cheated and used Protomatter. Just thought you'd want to know."

She said what needed to be said, no need to twist the knife on Kirk's grief.

But, just to play Devil's Advocate on this a bit, is it logical to preserve that secret when it might screw up a major scientific project and possibly even endanger lives? Would most Vulcans choose to be discreet under those circumstances?

 

[BillJ]

But, just to play Devil's Advocate on this a bit, is it logical to preserve that secret when it might screw up a major scientific project and possibly even endanger lives? Would most Vulcans choose to be discreet under those circumstances?

In another one of my posts, I note that it is likely Saavik was debriefed by Starfleet.

I think she could've passed on the information regarding Genesis without directly telling Kirk what happened. I imagine there is multiple Starfleet installations on/near Vulcan or she could've reported via subspace. Can't imagine she wasn't debriefed after what happened.

Not sure what purpose it would've served to tell Kirk his kid was a cheat?

 

[Marsden]

But, just to play Devil's Advocate on this a bit, is it logical to preserve that secret when it might screw up a major scientific project and possibly even endanger lives? Would most Vulcans choose to be discreet under those circumstances?

I think that would almost certainly happened after the end of SFS and before the start of TVH. When reports and such are done, Saavik isn't a renegade officer like the gang, she's the lone survivor of her ship. I'm sure she would have reported in, unless for some reason she was spending a year dead, for tax purposes.

 

[f14peter]

... David also says that his mother knew nothing about it (Which I suppose raises the question of how she didn't detect it, but whatever).

somebody help me out here ... I've seen the flick about 43 times, including last week and I don't recall anything about David mentioning his mother didn't know about the PM. I know it's in the script posted on Trek Core, but my recollection is those few lines weren't in the final cut of the film.

 

[BillJ]

somebody help me out here ... I've seen the flick about 43 times, including last week and I don't recall anything about David mentioning his mother didn't know about the PM. I know it's in the script posted on Trek Core, but my recollection is those few lines weren't in the final cut of the film.

I don't remember anything about it either.

 

[Timo]

Also, Chrissie's transcript site has what appears to be the standard theatrical release, and no mention of what Mom knew or didn't know.

Right after the opening credits, we learn that Kirk has made "inquiries" into the Genesis project and that Starfleet stonewalls him there. Doesn't sound as if either of the Marcuses discussed any specs with him, then. Also, the suggestion is there that the entire Genesis team was whisked away from Kirk posthaste, and primarily for reasons of secrecy at that.

As regards protomatter, considering what we know of it the odds are that David didn't order a jar of the stuff and then inject that into the Genesis torpedo - where could he get the stuff, and how could he do that in secrecy? Rather, protomatter sounds like something emerging as part of the Genesis process, thus something David could insert in the form of software.

It never makes dramatic sense that David would have to be "guilty" of something. It doesn't look as if protomatter really was at fault, either, as Genesis passed all the earlier tests with flying colors (even if we didn't see those pretty Ara up close). But clearly David does think he did something wrong, or else he wouldn't be so quick to expose his use of protomatter and claim that it is the thing at fault.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

somebody help me out here ... I've seen the flick about 43 times, including last week and I don't recall anything about David mentioning his mother didn't know about the PM. I know it's in the script posted on Trek Core, but my recollection is those few lines weren't in the final cut of the film.

I'm most likely recalling the DC Comics adaptation and inserting those lines into the movie, then. David definitely says that his mother knew nothing about it in there. So likely it was a line that was in the script and later cut.