Did people just take whatever seat they wanted on the Defiant?

[t_smitts]

On any of the other series, they were fairly consistent as to who sat (or stood) where and did what, but for some reason, the bridge of the Defiant seemed to be a game of musical chairs. Obviously, Sisko's in command, but it seemed like the writers/producers couldn't make up their minds for everyone else.

-"Apocalypse Rising" was explicit that Worf outranked Kira on the Defiant, which makes a lot of sense, and we got to see that in "Paradise Lost". In "Tears of the Prophets", however she's the one who takes command when Sisko falls ill.

-They were pretty consistent in having Dax take the helm, and having Nog inherit that post after her death, but even that wasn't always the case. O'Brien sat there in "Rules of Engagement" (you'd think he'd take an engineering post) and Kira did in on the Defiant's last mission in "The Changing Face of Evil". No reason why.

-They were also pretty arbitrary about who goes on the ship and who stays. I'm not sure why Worf stays in Ops, while Dax commands the Defiant in "A Call to Arms", and I don't think there's any reason given as to why Dax and Bashir stay behind in "Tears of the Prophets". As for why Garak comes along in that same episode, but not in others (and the the same goes for a pre-Maquis Eddington in various episodes), I don't have a clue.

-Maybe you could argue that Kira brushed up on starship operations, but, aside from the various civilian characters, Odo is the least suited to having any business on the Defiant. Now they came up with a valid excuse for having him come along in "The Search", but they also had him come along in "The Adversary" and "What You Leave Behind" for absolutely no reason at all, other than the fact that the story required him to interact with other Changelings.

Do you think they gave that any thought?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

On any of the other series, they were fairly consistent as to who sat (or stood) where and did what, but for some reason, the bridge of the Defiant seemed to be a game of musical chairs. Obviously, Sisko's in command, but it seemed like the writers/producers couldn't make up their minds for everyone else.

-"Apocalypse Rising" was explicit that Worf outranked Kira on the Defiant, which makes a lot of sense, and we got to see that in "Paradise Lost". In "Tears of the Prophets", however she's the one who takes command when Sisko falls ill.

The dialogue suggests that while Worf was second in command, Kira had the power to assign the Defiant. Furthermore, Worf's position with regard to the Defiant may have been revised after the events in Change of Heart. And after the station was retaken, Bajor may well have become one of the belligerents, which might have allowed Kira to have rank over Worf in the context of the power sharing agreement with the Federation. (And no, this does not happen in modern warfare.)

-They were pretty consistent in having Dax take the helm, and having Nog inherit that post after her death, but even that wasn't always the case. O'Brien sat there in "Rules of Engagement" (you'd think he'd take an engineering post) and Kira did in on the Defiant's last mission in "The Changing Face of Evil". No reason why.

-They were also pretty arbitrary about who goes on the ship and who stays. I'm not sure why Worf stays in Ops, while Dax commands the Defiant in "A Call to Arms", and I don't think there's any reason given as to why Dax and Bashir stay behind in "Tears of the Prophets". As for why Garak comes along in that same episode, but not in others (and the the same goes for a pre-Maquis Eddington in various episodes), I don't have a clue.

Given that Dax, along with O'Brien, had devised the mines themselves, their technical expertise may have been necessary for deploying the minefield. Conversely, Worf, as the strategic officer, was needed to coordinate with fleet operations and work on station defenses.

Sisko would not allow Dax and Worf on a mission together?

-Maybe you could argue that Kira brushed up on starship operations, but, aside from the various civilian characters, Odo is the least suited to having any business on the Defiant. Now they came up with a valid excuse for having him come along in "The Search", but they also had him come along in "The Adversary" and "What You Leave Behind" for absolutely no reason at all, other than the fact that the story required him to interact with other Changelings.

Do you think they gave that any thought?

 

[Timo]

TNG started out equally vague about who did what. There were utter drifters like Worf and LaForge, and even people who stayed at specific consoles like Data or Yar had their appointed tasks vary from episode to episode (say, who answers the comm calls, or sets the course?). Hot desking of the future?

-"Apocalypse Rising" was explicit that Worf outranked Kira on the Defiant, which makes a lot of sense, and we got to see that in "Paradise Lost". In "Tears of the Prophets", however she's the one who takes command when Sisko falls ill.

Well, anybody could have stepped in at the heat of the moment: the orders to act had already been given by the Captain, and Kira just relayed those to Nog. Also, when O'Brien came up with the way to make the battlesats kill themselves, it was Worf's turn to give the "Make It So", after which Kira felt entitled to tell Nog to go ahead. So the question of who was in command isn't all that clear-cut: in theory, Sisko was, all the time.

However, when Kira answers Martok's call, the Klingon jumps straight to the conclusion that the Major is to be thanked for the victory. Is that just him assuming that only the CO of a starship ever answers calls (very possibly the Klingon way); an underhanded insult towards Worf; or authentic knowledge of the chain of command aboard the exceptional little ship?

...the helm...

...Seems to be a trivial assignment, here and in TNG alike. Essentially, starships in the 24th century steer themselves. Random, often very junior people sitting down at the helm console is the norm; perhaps that's where people with nothing else to do sit down, or then everybody takes turns gathering frequent flier hours.

I'm not sure why Worf stays in Ops

I think this is the big question upon which the others hinge. Worf in "Way of the Warrior" got make-work, with the position of Strategic Operations Officer invented for him. Apparently, no job description went with the appointment, as when Worf began performing strategic operations, such as sector-wide crime fighting, Constable Odo claimed he was infringing on the Security Chief's mandate. I doubt Worf would have tolerated that state of affairs for long, so sooner or later he probably got actual work...

...Which unfortunately might have meant that he was not free to command the Defiant whenever he pleased. And that job had gone without an appointed officer for a long time, so it might have been difficult to make Worf's role there official at that point.

As for why Garak comes along in that same episode, but not in others (and the the same goes for a pre-Maquis Eddington in various episodes), I don't have a clue.

Eddington supposedly was Security, and specifically DS9 Security. We never got a DS9 Security representative aboard the Defiant, and never needed one - we got a representative of Friendly Founders, or initially Gamma Quadrant Weirdos, and Odo just happened to be the DS9 Security guy on the side (with Primmin and his possible followers supposedly keeping the station safe until Eddington inherited that role).

That Eddington did get aboard initially was directly attributable to his "Odo watchdog" role. When they got around that, he still answered to higher forces, and kept an eye on Sisko. Did he find excuses to come aboard that allowed him to perform that hush-hush job? Or was it acknowledged that he had the mandate to snoop around and occasionally attend "away missions"? Did Primmin originally have the same role, secretly or openly?

they also had him come along in "The Adversary" and "What You Leave Behind" for absolutely no reason at all, other than the fact that the story required him to interact with other Changelings.

In "The Adversary", they were already taking aboard passengers. Perhaps both Eddington and Odo felt it their duty to protect the Ambassador, and found it easy to accompany him given the mission specs. Or then they took this convenient cover in order to conduct their real duties of strategic security (in Eddington's case, on Starfleet or SF Security orders, in Odo's case to satisfy his constant personal need for policing). And deep down, Odo probably felt the presence of a fellow Changeling anyway. But these are rationalizations, not evidence of writer deliberation.

In "What You Leave Behind", interaction with Founders was assured. Odo definitely needed to be aboard for that reason alone - but also because of the bioweapon/cure issue. I do think there was thought given in this case.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Well, anybody could have stepped in at the heat of the moment: the orders to act had already been given by the Captain, and Kira just relayed those to Nog. Also, when O'Brien came up with the way to make the battlesats kill themselves, it was Worf's turn to give the "Make It So", after which Kira felt entitled to tell Nog to go ahead. So the question of who was in command isn't all that clear-cut: in theory, Sisko was, all the time.

However, when Kira answers Martok's call, the Klingon jumps straight to the conclusion that the Major is to be thanked for the victory. Is that just him assuming that only the CO of a starship ever answers calls (very possibly the Klingon way); an underhanded insult towards Worf; or authentic knowledge of the chain of command aboard the exceptional little ship?

By this point, Worf's role was largely in flux. He was often attached to Martok and served as a Federation representative on Klingon vessels. His role on the Defiant probably became less defined. Moreover, operating as a liaison, he may have been more aware of the overall strategy than the specific role the Defiant would play, which Kira might have known better. And once she was sitting in the chair, all the honors due to captain were hers.

 

[kkt]

As far as Odo, in "The Search" and "What You Leave Behind" they could have anticipated that they would need to interact with other changelings.

 

[The Wormhole]

As far as Odo, in "The Search" and "What You Leave Behind" they could have anticipated that they would need to interact with other changelings.

Well, not in The Search. They didn't know about other changelings yet.

 

[MacLeod]

Well given how advanced their computers are I would suspect you can configure any console to perform any duty.

 

[Timo]

Well, not in The Search. They didn't know about other changelings yet.

They did know Odo was from Gamma, so it would be pretty reasonable for them to take along the closest thing they had to a local guide. Especially as this was basically their first officially authorized mission into the alien quadrant - until then, Sisko had not been tasked with doing anything on the other side.

It did take some talking to get Odo a seat on the flight, but it was good talking. Kira wanted Odo to feel better, so she used her political pull; Bajorans no doubt liked the idea of two Bajorans going rather than one, even if the other one wasn't of their species; Sisko could see the wisdom of taking along the alien; and Starfleet got a win-win, first ousting the shifty Odo from his position of responsibility and then dumping him on this doomed mission.

It's not as if the heroes hadn't been taking along random passengers, including Odo, on their earlier missions when they only had runabouts available. Odo may tag along often enough, but he isn't crew, much less bridge crew.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shark]

As far as the 'musical chairs' of the crew; on real-world Submarines, at least subs of the past; all crew were required to know the job of every other crewman and to have an intimate knowledge of every station aboard the boat so in case someone is incapacitated, their post does not go unmanned.

 

[t_smitts]

TNG started out equally vague about who did what. There were utter drifters like Worf and LaForge, and even people who stayed at specific consoles like Data or Yar had their appointed tasks vary from episode to episode (say, who answers the comm calls, or sets the course?). Hot desking of the future?

Actually, other than Worf, they were fairly consistent about what people did and where on TNG, even in season 1.

Geordi sat at Conn, Data sat at Ops. Tasha was security, except for that weird moment when she operated the transported in "Heart of Glory" (in any other season, O'Brien would've handled that).

-"Apocalypse Rising" was explicit that Worf outranked Kira on the Defiant, which makes a lot of sense, and we got to see that in "Paradise Lost". In "Tears of the Prophets", however she's the one who takes command when Sisko falls ill.

Well, anybody could have stepped in at the heat of the moment: the orders to act had already been given by the Captain, and Kira just relayed those to Nog. Also, when O'Brien came up with the way to make the battlesats kill themselves, it was Worf's turn to give the "Make It So", after which Kira felt entitled to tell Nog to go ahead. So the question of who was in command isn't all that clear-cut: in theory, Sisko was, all the time.

There aren't too many command structures where "anybody" steps in during a crisis, such as a battle, if the person in charge is incapacitated. In fact hierarchies are usually pretty clear, to avoid that kind of confusion.

However, when Kira answers Martok's call, the Klingon jumps straight to the conclusion that the Major is to be thanked for the victory. Is that just him assuming that only the CO of a starship ever answers calls (very possibly the Klingon way); an underhanded insult towards Worf; or authentic knowledge of the chain of command aboard the exceptional little ship?

While the reason for Kira taking command certainly weren't clear, there was ample off-screen time for the Defiant to send out a message to the other ships that Sisko was down for the count and Kira was taking over.

they also had him come along in "The Adversary" and "What You Leave Behind" for absolutely no reason at all, other than the fact that the story required him to interact with other Changelings.

In "The Adversary", they were already taking aboard passengers. Perhaps both Eddington and Odo felt it their duty to protect the Ambassador, and found it easy to accompany him given the mission specs. Or then they took this convenient cover in order to conduct their real duties of strategic security (in Eddington's case, on Starfleet or SF Security orders, in Odo's case to satisfy his constant personal need for policing). And deep down, Odo probably felt the presence of a fellow Changeling anyway. But these are rationalizations, not evidence of writer deliberation.

Except it wasn't Odo's duty to protect the Ambassador. By that logic, Odo would have to follow every VIP that leaves the station. Once the Ambassador left on a ship, he was someone else's problem.

Conversely, if Eddington was responsible for all Starfleet security matters, it makes perfect sense that that would include security on the Starfleet ship docked there, and probably be the ship's de facto chief of security.

In "What You Leave Behind", interaction with Founders was assured. Odo definitely needed to be aboard for that reason alone - but also because of the bioweapon/cure issue. I do think there was thought given in this case.

Timo Saloniemi

Not necessarily. The Female Changeling seemed to be the only changeling on Cardassia and basically had one foot in the grave. There was no guarantee she would even survive the assault.

 

[Timo]

Geordi sat at Conn, Data sat at Ops.

But either could be tasked with "setting a course".

Tasha was security, except for that weird moment when she operated the transported in "Heart of Glory" (in any other season, O'Brien would've handled that).

But sometimes it was Yar who took the incoming calls, sometimes it was Data, sometimes LaForge. Nearly everybody got a shot at that!

After the first season, it was always Worf, at the Tactical/Security console. And Data stopped setting courses, and LaForge stopped piloting or doing security duty.

There aren't too many command structures where "anybody" steps in during a crisis, such as a battle

The point would be that this is not a matter of command structure. Kira only "stepped in" in the sense of being the first to notice that Sisko was out for the count, and uttering the first words in response to that. Her "commanding" carried no more weight than Worf's, as the Klingon in that situation decided on a course of action just as often as she did (that is, once).

While the reason for Kira taking command certainly weren't clear, there was ample off-screen time for the Defiant to send out a message to the other ships that Sisko was down for the count and Kira was taking over.

...Especially if Sisko played a commanding role in the fleet action. But there's little evidence of that, and indeed it sounds unrealistic that a ship with such limited resources could command the overall operation (for one thing, somebody should have taken the center seat and let Sisko sit down at a console of his own to do the commanding!).

Except it wasn't Odo's duty to protect the Ambassador. By that logic, Odo would have to follow every VIP that leaves the station. Once the Ambassador left on a ship, he was someone else's problem.

I did say "felt". Odo frequently feels that all the crimes in the universe are his personal problem and responsibility, and his clash with Worf in "Hippocratic Oath" comes exactly because he thinks he should pursue a criminal ring far outside his formal jurisdiction.

Eddington, now, could have been formally tasked with protecting the Ambassador. But tasking him with Defiant security would undermine his work at the station - why wouldn't the ship have a security chief of her own?

Or an engineer of her own, for that matter. I can easily see Sisko occasionally adopting the CO role, or letting Worf handle that, despite the stationside duties of the two; quite possibly somebody else commanded the less demanding missions of that ship, somebody with no such conflicting duties, but he or she would naturally step aside when the ship was used for Important Sisko Matters. But a dedicated engineer for the ship would be a completely different matter.

It's just that the ship probably wasn't expected to be crewed at all. Apparently, Starfleet just let Sisko essentially steal the idled prototype for an all-volunteer suicide mission in "The Search", and was flabbergasted that Sisko and the ship survived, but didn't feel any obligation to provide the ship with a regular crew even afterwards. Still, the lack of a dedicated engineer (especially on such unique and quirky hardware) jars me much worse than the occasional presence of passengers.

The Female Changeling seemed to be the only changeling on Cardassia and basically had one foot in the grave. There was no guarantee she would even survive the assault.

Yet her surviving was an important strategic goal for Starfleet - they feared a banzai charge if the Section 31 bioattack killed the Founders in Gamma, so they should have feared the smaller-scale local equivalent if the Founders stranded in Alpha were lost.

Also, Starfleet had zero knowledge on the number of Founders on Cardassia or in Alpha (although they could guess the number was not "four", because that had been claimed by the Founder in "Paradise Lost", unless of course that was clever triple bluff, although then again...), but they knew for a fact that these were the talk-to guys, gals or goos. And indeed that there were no other talk-to individuals available in the Dominion ranks.

And they could further suspect that there would be no such ranks if not for the presence of at least some Founders, as the Vorta had already proven they'd capitulate in a heartbeat to save their own asses!

Really, getting Odo to talk to a Founder and shake hands with it was the only way to win the war. That, or another session with the Prophets, one where they'd both intervene on behalf of the UFP and do something to the Alpha beachhead force of the Dominion, and promise never to open the gates to Gamma again. And Sisko had more reason to trust Odo than the Prophets.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

As for who is at the Conn: Jadzia is a highly-trained pilot (plus she has the experience of a past Host to draw upon as well), O'Brien served as relief in "Encounter at Farpoint", Nog was trained at the Academy, whilst Kira is an experienced combat pilot, even Bashir takes over a couple of times but he's been shown to fly a runabout so piloting skills seems to be a basic for everyone going through the Academy.

The Kira/Worf XO question is one that's always baffled me. I can get onboard with Worf being the XO when Kira isn't there, but when she's there it makes no sense. I can only think that it's because he is Starfleet onboard a Starfleet ship, though no one has ever shown any problems taking Kira's orders either on the Defiant or the station.

 

[MacLeod]

As for who is at the Conn: Jadzia is a highly-trained pilot (plus she has the experience of a past Host to draw upon as well), O'Brien served as relief in "Encounter at Farpoint", Nog was trained at the Academy, whilst Kira is an experienced combat pilot, even Bashir takes over a couple of times but he's been shown to fly a runabout so piloting skills seems to be a basic for everyone going through the Academy.

The Kira/Worf XO question is one that's always baffled me. I can get onboard with Worf being the XO when Kira isn't there, but when she's there it makes no sense. I can only think that it's because he is Starfleet onboard a Starfleet ship, though no one has ever shown any problems taking Kira's orders either on the Defiant or the station.

Picard manned CONN in the odd episodes of TNG.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Well given how advanced their computers are I would suspect you can configure any console to perform any duty.

This, and consoles might even be set to do a one touch reconfiguration automatically to user preferences based on user authentication in either their combadges or via internal ship's sensors. That's how I'd do it, anyway - and I'd also make the consoles lock out for NON-authorized entities.

 

[BillJ]

...and I'd also make the consoles lock out for NON-authorized entities.

There goes about half the episodes of Star Trek across the various series.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

The Kira/Worf XO question is one that's always baffled me. I can get onboard with Worf being the XO when Kira isn't there, but when she's there it makes no sense. I can only think that it's because he is Starfleet onboard a Starfleet ship, though no one has ever shown any problems taking Kira's orders either on the Defiant or the station.

In actuality, there is a Kira/Worf/Dax problem, particularly when Dax was elevated to CO above Worf.

I think the problem of the hazy chain of command comes from the setting of the show itself. Even off station, what happens on the show nonetheless reflects the fact that the crew is supposed to be based on the station. When the Defiant was introduced, pain was taken to make it look like a tool of station policy rather than an alternative to or replacement for the station. Indeed, Berman was keen on making sure that the Defiant did no upstage Voyager. Subsequently, the Defiant acts as kind of a mini ops, wherein various conficting policy interests and personalities play out.

Being that the Defiant is more or less an extension of the station, the ambiguity reflects the unique power sharing agreement, where the Federation mans most posts but the Bajorans hold a few key positions. The only real difference is that the Defiant has no Bajoran engineering crew, even though Bajorans work on Federation defense systems on the station. There is also ambiguity because there is no XO position: in ops, the everyone is doing stuff; on the Defiant, everyone is doing stuff. There is no dedicated position for the XO to sit, observe, and give orders that compliment the captain's. Only Odo and Bashir seem to be able to pace behind the captain's chair while biting their nails.

The exception: Eddington gets a special place to stand and make witty barbs.

This arrangement comes from Sisko himself: in the pilot, Sisko claims that Kira's presence reflected his interest in sharing power. Whoever is second command reflects whom Sisko wants. Hence Worf guards convoys, Dax sets up minefields, and Kira attacks the Dominion fleet coming through the wormhole.

This probably gave more flexibility when setting up visuals. In IPS/BIL, Sisko can be framed with Worf, while Kira can be seen the one actively confronting the threats to Bajor.

 

[MacLeod]

Well given how advanced their computers are I would suspect you can configure any console to perform any duty.

This, and consoles might even be set to do a one touch reconfiguration automatically to user preferences based on user authentication in either their combadges or via internal ship's sensors. That's how I'd do it, anyway - and I'd also make the consoles lock out for NON-authorized entities.

Thank you for pressing the self-destruct button, this thread will self destruct in ten posts.

 

[USS Triumphant]

There goes about half the episodes of Star Trek across the various series.

Indeed.

Thank you for pressing the self-destruct button, this thread will self destruct in ten posts.

Is this a play on me being unauthorized to push that button, or on the argument it will result in, or... nevermind. Bravo.

 

[RogueVasad]

Well given how advanced their computers are I would suspect you can configure any console to perform any duty.

This, and consoles might even be set to do a one touch reconfiguration automatically to user preferences based on user authentication in either their combadges or via internal ship's sensors. That's how I'd do it, anyway - and I'd also make the consoles lock out for NON-authorized entities.

Thank you for pressing the self-destruct button, this thread will self destruct in ten posts.

The problem is that in a crisis the spilt seconds it takes for the computer to confirm authorization, figure out who is taking over, and switch to their preferred control could get the ship and everyone on it transformed to the quantum state known as smithereens.

 

[Timo]

From "Defiant", we sort of know how this works: people of proper credentials (such as Tom Riker, whom the ship mistakes for Will Riker) can access the computer if duly entered into its "command authorization" list, and not before.

The problem is, we only know this from "Defiant"...

Is that special procedure for a starship docked at a civilian pier? Sounds a bit unlikely, as there already was a security check at the gate. Is that special procedure for a starship that often hosts people of dubious trustworthiness, and due to her small size doesn't have "safe" guest facilities? Might just barely be. Is that special procedure for a ship employing foreigners and therefore needing levels of access? We never heard of Bajorans being locked out that way specifically.

Is it simply standard for all starships to be locked out that way while idled? If so, did we miss this bit of dialogue whenever our heroes launched a runabout?

What "Defiant" shows is that once Kira removes the general block, all bets are off and commands from random Maquis riffraff are now accepted. Would Kira, if not gunned down, have just entered Riker's credentials to the command list and then reinstated the block so that Riker and Riker only could manipulate the computer? Would that have mattered, as Tom Riker then would have been authorized to do the same for his Maquis friends, or would the computer have balked at them being criminals rather than known Starfleet personnel?

I gather there's some procedure about this, but it seldom is as strict as shown here.

Timo Saloniemi