Did next gen ever have a mary sue type character?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: The Next Generation' started by WildManWizard, Feb 12, 2019 at 4:13 PM.

  1. WildManWizard

    WildManWizard Ensign Red Shirt

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    In case some are unfamiliar with the term :

    Mary Sue is a term used to describe a fictional character, usually female, who is seen as too perfect and almost boring for lack of flaws, originally written as an idealized version of an author in fanfiction.

    did the show ever slip into this kind of territory?
    would Nella Daren from lessons count as a mary sue?
     
  2. Finn

    Finn Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wouldn't this be ironic for TNG with their beliefs that Humanity had evolved beyond such imperfections, etc?

    As for Daren, I don't think we saw enough of her to say she was a "Mary Sue".
     
  3. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Yes. His name was Wesley Crusher.

    Kor
     
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  4. Kilana2

    Kilana2 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wesley Crusher - for obvious reasons. He originally should have been Leslie.

    Obviously I'm a Mary Sue character and share a telepathic link with @Kor
     
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  5. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Was it coincidence that Wesley was also Gene Roddenberry's middle name? I suspect not.

    Kor
     
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  6. Kilana2

    Kilana2 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Neither do I.
     
  7. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Another vote for Wesley, but I also think Pulaski came off very Mary Sue-like.
     
  8. Nakita Akita

    Nakita Akita Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, let me think....
    Troi comes to mind.
    Also Dr. Crusher.
    You can't get more perfect than those two.
     
  9. Nakita Akita

    Nakita Akita Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Doubtful since she was flawed in most people's minds for:
    Treating Data as an 'it' or machine.
    Always contradicting Picard.
    Seeming bossy and a know it all.
    Not having big interesting boobs that she bore out all of the time.
    Not having bedroom hair.
    Nope, I don't see it with her.
     
  10. Cutie McWhiskers

    Cutie McWhiskers Commodore Commodore

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    Yup. Wesley Crusher, in some cases Picard, Dr Crusher. Data is always the Deus Ex Machina.

    Mary Sue or Marty Stu or Scooby Doo aside, what bothered me more was writing up the Mary Marty bunch by writing down everyone else as if they're all a bunch of nitwits. "The Naked Now" almost gets away with it thanks to the virus, but "Datalore" (amongst others) quickly fail when making Riker and Picard act so numb just for the sake of Wesley Wonderbread. As a result, everyone ends up looking bad, and even the target audience isn't going to buy into it either. Just just the concept of Lore helps save the day, kudos go to Spiner and his acting as Lore to save the day as well, as did Dorn's in their scenes together, and that incidental music - which was cinematic. Everyone played it straight, but a big positive accolade for Wheaton should be mentioned: A bad actor couldn't begin to do the "tantrum" scenes with any gusto, flair or air of authenticity. despite the plot's foibles, Wheaton played it all absolutely straight, nailed the key scenes, and kept me focused on the character, not the actor trying to play a character - on top of a script that was given better treatment than it deserved; a script that needed more refining to let Wesley show the genius without said script turning the adults into a bunch of dingalings to hollowly and artificially boost the genius. (Season 2 onward did Wesley (along with everyone else) a lot more justice and Wheaton continued to excel.) Wheaton unfairly gets graft by people who conflate actor as being the role, which isn't right.

    Sorry to get off topic but it's a great example of where elevating one character at the expense of others serves none of them any good in the end. As well as the Mary Marty Scooby doobie aspect.
     
  11. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    But since she steadfastly believed he was just a machine and never actually changed her opinion about that, in her mind she was 100% right, a clear characteristic of a Mary Sue.

    See bold above.

    See bold above.

    I have no idea what you're talking about here, but boobs and hair have nothing to do with being a Mary Sue.
     
  12. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don’t see it. Troi was about as flawed as any character but Worf. Her relationship with her mother, her dependence on empathy and getting swept up in other people’s feelings. And Beverly was often intolerant of others beliefs. And neither had many skills outside their area of profession, the main requirement for Mary Sues.

    There are Mary Sues out there but a lot of people misuse the term to mean ‘Any competent assertive female’.
     
  13. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    A Mary Sue is an upstart who solves big problems that baffle characters who are much more experienced and competent (thereby making them look inept). Wesley definitely helped save the day way more than he should have been able to.

    Kor
     
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  14. Kilana2

    Kilana2 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Diane Carey turned a young teenager Kirk into a Mary Sue character in her Best Destiny novel. Teenie Kirk beating a strong Klingon in a hand-to-hand combat single-handedly.... On the other hand: Carey was not the only one to turn Kirk into superman..... And I remember a novel were Scotty performed a complicated medical emergency procedure on a person in need.....
    Maybe Barclay when he was turned into a superbeing. But I hate this episode and Barclay is completely different.
     
  15. Nakita Akita

    Nakita Akita Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I just felt that Pulaski was viewed as flawed.
    Whereas Troi and Crusher were pretty much views as perfect.
     
  16. JirinPanthosa

    JirinPanthosa Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Not any more so than Picard, Riker or Data though so why single out them?

    To me two important attributes of Mary Sues are being automatically loved by everyone and being good in disciplines your background does not earn you. Beverly and Troi fail condition 2. Beverly is only good at medicine and Troi is only good at counseling and diplomacy.
     
  17. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Pulaski character was not meant to be flawed. She was meant to be a female version of McCoy, and was meant to have witty sparring matches with Data like how McCoy did with Spock. Only it didn’t turn out that way (either because of poorly written script lines or just the failure of the actress playing the part), and she just came off as abrasive, rude, and set in her ways. The audience immediately sided with Data, which was why Pulaski was viewed so negatively later. But nobody actually tried to correct Pulaski or tell her that she was being a bitch. So in that context, she could qualify as a Mary Sue.
     
  18. Sareesataka

    Sareesataka Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Worf: "Wesley? The boy?"
     
  19. Amaris

    Amaris Fuzzy Logic Generator Premium Member

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    Nah, she wouldn't qualify as a Mary Sue. Personally, I adored Pulaski, and because of her flaws. I loved that she was stubborn, that she was a bit of a luddite when it came to Data, that she had a nefarious streak in her when it served her purpose, and that she could be very wrong when she thought she was absolutely correct. I like Gates McFadden, but I wanted Pulaski to stick around. She's the reason why I enjoy season 2 as much as I do.
     
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  20. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Apparently we saw the character completely different.