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Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early seasons?

TEH BABA

Commodore
Commodore
One problem is nco's perform certain specialist jobs like accounting. Also you need some entry level jobs having to wait 4 years for a officer is inconvient for lets say a clerical job. And not anyone will be willing to sign up for 6 year contract which is minimum 8 years for officer. TNG just seemed to have way to many ensigns in its first couple seasons. Also contricted tos which had nco's.
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

One problem is nco's perform certain specialist jobs like accounting. Also you need some entry level jobs having to wait 4 years for a officer is inconvient for lets say a clerical job. And not anyone will be willing to sign up for 6 year contract which is minimum 8 years for officer. TNG just seemed to have way to many ensigns in its first couple seasons. Also contricted tos which had nco's.
Starfleet isn't run like today's military.
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

There were far worse offenses done by Roddenberry, or rather in his name, that did more damage to TNG in the early years than not having any non-coms.
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

No idea what "nco" stands for, so no, it probably didn't hurt TNG any. Maybe they were the guys in the skants.
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

They also had a large civilian population on the Enterprise-D. Perhaps they held some of the lesser duties.
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

There were far worse offenses done by Roddenberry, or rather in his name, that did more damage to TNG in the early years than not having any non-coms.

Like what? B & B were the real damage inflictors
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

There were far worse offenses done by Roddenberry, or rather in his name, that did more damage to TNG in the early years than not having any non-coms.

Like what? B & B were the real damage inflictors
Except that they really weren't. In fact I don't think there was a "B&B" until Voyager rolled around, no?

Explain yourself.
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

neat. baba'd.
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

I'd see it as perfectly natural that we wouldn't see any non-officers aboard a Galaxy class vessel. The massive thing has thousands of people aboard, and unlike a warship of the 20th century, has most of those people in "specialist" roles rather than shoveling coal.

What this means isn't that there are no NCOs or enlisteds. No, what it means is that there are dozens upon dozens of departments with their own hierarchies that terminate in commissioned officers, and the running of the ship hinges on coordinating these departments. Our heroes are the top officers, working in a tight team. And the people they interact with in their work are the next layer of officers.

It would take a different ship for our top officers to meet lowly menial workers. Perhaps the ship would be so primitive that there would be deckhands there to service and operate the shuttles and transporters, to repair the bridge machinery while the officers work, to mind those consoles that require dull menial presence, to clean the cabins. But a Galaxy is not like that: it's highly automated and works smoothly without the constant presence of enlisteds in the vicinity of the top officers.

OTOH, aboard a smaller ship the distance from Picard to somebody like O'Brien would be shorter, both in terms of organization and in sheer physical terms. People would bump into each other across caste borders much more often. But Galaxy is a floating suburb: you don't meet people you don't want to meet.

It smacks of artificiality that our top officers eventually do meet and even befriend (S?)CPO O'Brien. Why is he suddenly operating the transporters when the other standard operators used to be commissioned officers?

Of course, O'Brien is a highly interesting character as such, and TNG might have done well to introduce people like him from the very beginning. But logically, TNG would then have become a "two-story story", with the officers having adventures in their own realm and the noncoms in a different, separate realm. And TNG had enough "bulk" to deal with due to its seven-hero ensemble already - a second "tier" of cast would have called for "modern", 1990s style storytelling where a highly serialized format allows zoom-ins to different sets of heroes in different episodes, with ongoing storylines for each built up from tiny fragments in successive episodes.

In that sense, I think TNG not only followed internal Star Trek logic, but also made the correct dramatic choice. I'm afraid none of the original TNG team could have carried the show if it had attempted the "modern" format, and it would have been an abysmal flop even among us Trekkies.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

There were far worse offenses done by Roddenberry, or rather in his name, that did more damage to TNG in the early years than not having any non-coms.

Like what? B & B were the real damage inflictors

B&B didn't come to run the franchise until the mid-run of VOY. Let's not digress into yet another "discussion" of what those two did or didn't do to Trek. Here the OP was asking in regards to the early seasons, particularly one and two when Roddenberry had more direct input before he's health really started to decline.

Roddenberry, as has been documented in various Trek-related text and discussed here on these boards, was not a saint. By TNG, he fell into what I like to call "Ayn Rand Syndrome" where he grew to believe his own press and the accolades/worship that he got from Trekkies. He saw Trek not as a vehicle for good storytelling, but rather a platform for the so-called utopian vision that the media and fans stamped upon his creation. The early seasons, especially, smack of this philosophical soapbox.

His policy of "no conflict" hurt the characters and the series early on in that the TNG characters, with the exception of Data and Picard, felt like cyphers fulfilling a part rather than being distinct. Interchange any of them and the plot of the story doesn't change. Characters, and the audience, grow and learn through conflict and adversity. Piller tried to fix some of this, but the damage was done and the characters, for me, still felt like a function of plot rather than fully-developed people whose world-views and choices organically effect the plot. In other words, solutions came from tech rather than character. Unlike in TOS, where Kirk, Spock and McCoy's different outlooks allowed the plot to move and change because of who those people were. Those three, working together and occasionally disagreeing, allowed solutions to come from their choices rather than "reverse the polarity of the neutron flow."

Roddenberry, in the first season, allowed his lawyer to run amok which resulted in departure of David Gerrold and D.C. Fontana. Roddenberry, through his lawyer, didn't give Gerrold the proper credit for writing the TNG bible. Imagine if those two had stayed, we'd might have gotten better written science-fiction stories that didn't rely on technobabble as solution.

Speaking of which, Roddenberry in early statements stated that he didn't want to work with SF writers because he'd worked with them before on TOS and found that many of them couldn't write television or were difficult to work with. Instead, he surrounded himself with television writers like Maurice Hurley, who in interviews has always come across as a little too Hollywood, in the early seasons.

He also dictated that there be an A and B plot structure to TNG, but still kept the series relegated in 60s and 70s storytelling format whereas the one-hour drama had already become more sophisticated with shows such as Hill Street Blues and St. Elsewhere.

Roddenberry was a great visionary and I would've loved to have seen what Trek would've been like had he carried forward with the Trek 'verse from TMP, but he was a human. As such, he was fallible, as we all are, to his ego and his proclivities. The damage of his drug and alcohol use combined with his ailing health and his ego, did a lot more to hurt the first two seasons of TNG than not having seeing any NCOs.
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

I'd see it as perfectly natural that we wouldn't see any non-officers aboard a Galaxy class vessel. The massive thing has thousands of people aboard, and unlike a warship of the 20th century, has most of those people in "specialist" roles rather than shoveling coal.

What this means isn't that there are no NCOs or enlisteds. No, what it means is that there are dozens upon dozens of departments with their own hierarchies that terminate in commissioned officers, and the running of the ship hinges on coordinating these departments. Our heroes are the top officers, working in a tight team. And the people they interact with in their work are the next layer of officers.

It would take a different ship for our top officers to meet lowly menial workers. Perhaps the ship would be so primitive that there would be deckhands there to service and operate the shuttles and transporters, to repair the bridge machinery while the officers work, to mind those consoles that require dull menial presence, to clean the cabins. But a Galaxy is not like that: it's highly automated and works smoothly without the constant presence of enlisteds in the vicinity of the top officers.

OTOH, aboard a smaller ship the distance from Picard to somebody like O'Brien would be shorter, both in terms of organization and in sheer physical terms. People would bump into each other across caste borders much more often. But Galaxy is a floating suburb: you don't meet people you don't want to meet.

It smacks of artificiality that our top officers eventually do meet and even befriend (S?)CPO O'Brien. Why is he suddenly operating the transporters when the other standard operators used to be commissioned officers?

Of course, O'Brien is a highly interesting character as such, and TNG might have done well to introduce people like him from the very beginning. But logically, TNG would then have become a "two-story story", with the officers having adventures in their own realm and the noncoms in a different, separate realm. And TNG had enough "bulk" to deal with due to its seven-hero ensemble already - a second "tier" of cast would have called for "modern", 1990s style storytelling where a highly serialized format allows zoom-ins to different sets of heroes in different episodes, with ongoing storylines for each built up from tiny fragments in successive episodes.

In that sense, I think TNG not only followed internal Star Trek logic, but also made the correct dramatic choice. I'm afraid none of the original TNG team could have carried the show if it had attempted the "modern" format, and it would have been an abysmal flop even among us Trekkies.

Timo Saloniemi

Of course, O'Brien was an officer, a lieutenant, in season two. It was only later that the writing stafff decided that he was an NCO, and hence demonstrated that there were NCOs and enlisted crew.
I distinctly remember reading a piece around 1988/89 stating, with Roddenberry as authority, that there were no 'enlisted personnel' by the TNG era - everyone on board the Enterprise-D was either a Starfleet officer, who'd come through the academy, a civilian specialist, or family of the afore-mentioned. But I've never been able to track the article down to check its reliability...
 
Re: Did gene's lack of nco's hurt believability of tng in early season

Nope. The actual organizational structure of the ship never made any difference in TOS or TNG. We knew who the leads were, and who was in charge.
 
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