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Did Columbus REALLY discover the new world?

And he is right...historians and college professors (especially tenure college professors) do have a dogmatic view with stuff like this....same goes with scientists like physicists.

Enjoy, and let's discuss. :bolian:
Emphasis mine.

First of all, even discarding the original settlers, the fact that people "discovered" America before Columbus is well known (even if some specific contacts are disputed).

Then, I don't think I will enjoy the discussion very much if you start with the attitude that rigour and skepticism is a bad thing for science.
 
Skepticism is also very healthy for historians (as one of my history professors put it, if we don't question what we read, we're simply just a weird brand of English major).
 
I gave up trying to listen to that interview when all the whacko theories about Atlantis, Mu and even Troy started coming out. I can buy the idea that the Chinese had trading fleets all over the Pacific and Indian oceans in the 14th/early 15th centuries -- the other weird stuff just polluted the message.


Define "wacko". :vulcan:
 
Skepticism is also very healthy for historians (as one of my history professors put it, if we don't question what we read, we're simply just a weird brand of English major).

Ahh, but there's some who just want to be "correct". Arrogence is high among scientists and historians alike.

Zawee Hawas being a prime example, you even SUGGEST the Sphinx is much older than he says, and NOT in the image of Chephren, he'll chew you out....even though the evidence of water erosion, which only could have happened thousands of years earlier, is apparent.

Scientists, historians, and tenure professors are, as I put it, more arrogent than rock stars. :rolleyes:
 
Ptolemy actually screwed up the diameter/circumference of the earth. Erastothenes actually figured out the rough circumference, I believe he was about 200-400 miles off. Ptolemy's ideas actually encouraged Columbus to take the western route.

Yeah, but compared to the previous models, Ptolomey was still able to recognize that his known world only covered about 1/4th of the globe.

My question still stands, though. Was Columbus *really* trying for a trade route to the orient, or was he really aware that there was an unexplored land mass out there? If he knew, was the "new trade route" a shill to get sponsorship? We'll never know for sure, but I think it's a possibility that doesn't get discusssed much.
 
Then, I don't think I will enjoy the discussion very much if you start with the attitude that rigour and skepticism is a bad thing for science.
Skepticism is also very healthy for historians (as one of my history professors put it, if we don't question what we read, we're simply just a weird brand of English major).
Well, I'm going on a limb here and calling history a science. :p;)


Scientists, historians, and tenure professors are, as I put it, more arrogent than rock stars. :rolleyes:
And by "arrogant", I suppose you mean "more knowledgeable than me".
 
I gave up trying to listen to that interview when all the whacko theories about Atlantis, Mu and even Troy started coming out. I can buy the idea that the Chinese had trading fleets all over the Pacific and Indian oceans in the 14th/early 15th centuries -- the other weird stuff just polluted the message.

Define "wacko". :vulcan:

Oh I know it when I hear it. ;) The uncritical interviewer seemed to be goading the guy along so much that I thought it was a deliberate setup. I hoped that eventually he would attempt to pull the rug from under Thompson's feet and the whole towering pile of unsubstantiated Stargatesque nonsense would come crashing down. In the end, I bailed out as I feared for my sanity.

The funniest moment was when Thompson started rambling on about continental drift, and he himself drifted off without making the expected point about scientific orthodoxy sometimes being overturned. The whole point about paradigm shifts is that you need bloody strong evidence to move mountains.
 
Ahh, but there's some who just want to be "correct". Arrogence is high among scientists and historians alike.

Zawee Hawas being a prime example, you even SUGGEST the Sphinx is much older than he says, and NOT in the image of Chephren, he'll chew you out....even though the evidence of water erosion, which only could have happened thousands of years earlier, is apparent.

Scientists, historians, and tenure professors are, as I put it, more arrogent than rock stars. :rolleyes:

Wow, that's a gross overgeneralization! The scientists that I have met (and I used to be one) are generally willing and happy to change their views based on the latest data.

The water erosion "evidence" is extremely controversial. It's not a definite thing. At least not now.

My question still stands, though. Was Columbus *really* trying for a trade route to the orient, or was he really aware that there was an unexplored land mass out there? If he knew, was the "new trade route" a shill to get sponsorship? We'll never know for sure, but I think it's a possibility that doesn't get discusssed much.

We do know. All evidence suggests that he fully expected to reach the far east. No evidence suggests that he expected to run into unknown continents.

Mr Awe
 
Skepticism is also very healthy for historians (as one of my history professors put it, if we don't question what we read, we're simply just a weird brand of English major).

Ahh, but there's some who just want to be "correct". Arrogence is high among scientists and historians alike.

Zawee Hawas being a prime example, you even SUGGEST the Sphinx is much older than he says, and NOT in the image of Chephren, he'll chew you out....even though the evidence of water erosion, which only could have happened thousands of years earlier, is apparent.

I don't think they're arrogant so much as stubborn. They spent so many years building up and defending their arguments, that they don't want to see these ideas destroyed (there are several examples of famous people I've learned about in both history and anthropology that took their ideas to the grave in spite of the general opinion moving against them). As for Zahi Hawass, he's certainly one of the most famous Egyptologists today (you'll see him in pretty much any History channel program about Egypt, for example) and he does tend to have a very dominating personality, but I don't think he's the only type of historian out there (I've seen all types, some far more open-minded than others).

Then, I don't think I will enjoy the discussion very much if you start with the attitude that rigour and skepticism is a bad thing for science.
Skepticism is also very healthy for historians (as one of my history professors put it, if we don't question what we read, we're simply just a weird brand of English major).
Well, I'm going on a limb here and calling history a science. :p;)

I thought about that and I always go back and forth. To me, the idea of history as a science comes too much from Karl Marx who though things could be defined and simplified and all of human history could be broken down in specific rules. This works for a lot of sciences (especially the more they rely on mathematics), but it doesn't really work for history. That's why I tend to separate it as a humanity instead of a science. Certainly, it has to stand up to the same types of rigors that science has to, but there's a lot of stuff open to interpretation and no absolute truth will be known (barring a time machine) for the simple reason that so much was lost over time (and what does survive has biases and limitations).

Then again, things like Paleontology, anthropology, or archeology all run into similar short-comings and I do tend to consider them sciences.
 
^^ But they didn't discover it; they were born here. Only a relatively small founding population crossed the land bridge.

Then again, things like Paleontology, anthropology, or archeology all run into similar short-comings and I do tend to consider them sciences.
That's exactly why I'd consider history a Science. It requires evidence just as much as anything else and must be judged by rigorous standards. Even hard Sciences such as Astronomy and Physics are based on the interpretation of experimental results.
 
A few million people "discovered" it thousands of years before he "discovered" it.

A "few million"? I'm afraid that number is greatly exaggerated :vulcan:
Seeing as how in 500 bc there was still less than 100 million people world wide...
I do believe he's referring to native over millennia.

Originally Posted by Alidar Jarok
Skepticism is also very healthy for historians (as one of my history professors put it, if we don't question what we read, we're simply just a weird brand of English major).

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Zawee Hawas being a prime example, you even SUGGEST the Sphinx is much older than he says, and NOT in the image of Chephren, he'll chew you out....even though the evidence of water erosion, which only could have happened thousands of years earlier, is apparent.
I don't think they're arrogant so much as stubborn. They spent so many years building up and defending their arguments, that they don't want to see these ideas destroyed (there are several examples of famous people I've learned about in both history and anthropology that took their ideas to the grave in spite of the general opinion moving against them). As for Zahi Hawass, he's certainly one of the most famous Egyptologists today (you'll see him in pretty much any History channel program about Egypt, for example) and he does tend to have a very dominating personality, but I don't think he's the only type of historian out there (I've seen all types, some far more open-minded than others).
Anyone read Charles Pellegrino? He's been known to work simultaneously in entomology, forensic physics, paleogenetics, preliminary design of advanced rocket systems, astrobiology, and marine archaeology. As well as a Star Trek novelist. A real polymath. His book on Santorini as Atlantis, Unearthing Atlantis, is a key historical text for me. Anyway, in that book, he tells a story of travelling into the Egyptian desert with an unnamed archaeologist, and discussing ideas on dating with him (more on that in a moment), the archaeologist was so upset that everything his 'beliefs' were based on might be wrong, that he threatened to kill himself and leave Pellegrino to die in the desert with no way back. Took some talking down, apparently.

My curiosity was piqued, and I undertook some research of my own, and I'm fairly convinced that dating systems between 2000 - 700 BC are fairly screweed up across the board. Each historian/archaeologist concentrates on one region and doesn't look at the wider picture of, say, the Eastern Med as a whole. It seems apparent to me there's some discrepancy as to 'when' events happened as numbered in the current calendar, but because the dates aren't considered outside the discipline of the people numbering them, they don't make a lot of sense. The point being these academics will defend their entrenched methodology and numbering, especially if an 'amateur' like me was to write an article on it. Their belief in what they do is even more zealous than the fiercest Christian.

But I digress.

The whole Zheng He thing has been put under a cloud by the Menzies book. Maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. I wish our ancestors had been more meticulous with the bookkeeping. Or the bookburners less zealous. Or the government officals less careless. Whatever. :)

To the OP, there are some good book and docos out there about the Vikings, have a look at them.

On a side note to that, Vikings worked as mercenaries in India in the 700s-800s, iirc, and not far from where I live in Australia, there's an Aboriginal rock carving of a boat that look suspiciously like a longboat. One wonders.
 
As far as the dates between 2000 and 700 go, they do tend to be messed up, at least in the near east. I wouldn't say they're entirely bad, but you're dealing with a period without written records for the most part. For the longest of times, we assumed Mycenaean civilization ended around 800 BC because we didn't account for a period of 500 years with no written records there (the Ancients thought this too. Look at the Aenead. Troy falls and soon after, Dido founds Carthage in 814).

I think there also tends to be a playing up of the Sea Peoples and combining them with other dramatic events across the region. The Egyptians make a huge deal about these people and the Egyptians are the only ones we have remotely secure dates with (maybe the Assyrians in the later part of this period c.900BC or so). Overall, it's just so difficult to tell considering how sporadic records are.
 
I was writing a story about Thera and the Thera Event, and when you realise the impact it would have to have had around the Eastern Med, then begin to tie it to specific, verifiable events in other cultures, the dates as speculated don't line up, and that includes Egyptian. Keep in mind that the list of Pharaohs has bee jigged and rejigged for political reasons over the centuries, so ultimately it has to be not absolutely reliable.
 
Who cares who discovered it -- at least some people get the day off, and soem school kids, too. Let's celebrate not having to do shit for a day. ;)
 
Who cares who discovered it -- at least some people get the day off, and soem school kids, too. Let's celebrate not having to do shit for a day. ;)

It's a stupid, outdated holiday, although I relish it as I work for the Gov't and get a freebie :techman:

How can somebody discover a place that already has an active population?
If they bring a flag with them.
Those are the rules. No flag, no country.

I bet Columbus didn't moon the natives after having planted said flag :shifty:
 
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