Depicting Women in Combat

[Bad Thoughts]

I've always been impressed with how DS9 portrayed women in power. Arguably, other Trek series had prominent women, even one character that was the series' lead. Unlike Voyager and Enterprise, DS9 had two women in the top ranks of the station's hierarchy (although it gets blurry when Worf arrives): Kira is the XO, and Dax is arguably the second officer. What's interesting to me is that the stories always put them into the fight, not only pushing buttons to fire phasers against ships, but in the middle of close melees, firing rifles, and in some cases, using their own fists. Of course, DS9 had more of this kind of fighting, and Kira's backstory predisposed the character to react physically to threats. Dax, OTOH, could easily have devolved into a nurturing role. Instead, she was very much the beautiful warrior, different from the Xena-types who would follow. I will give credit to Terry Farrell: she seemed to learn the choreographed fight sequences very well, and she projected a stature to make it feel as if she could perform those actions naturally. By now, it's not unusual to see women fight in films and on TV, but DS9 still seems to stand out because of having two women involved in this way.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Dax, OTOH, could easily have devolved into a nurturing role. Instead, she was very much the beautiful warrior, different from the Xena-types who would follow.

Which I suspect was due to a combination of Jadzia's inherent athleticism and Dax's familiarity with Klingon culture; in hindsight, I'm not at all surprised at how well she handled herself in combat.

I will give credit to Terry Farrell: she seemed to learn the choreographed fight sequences very well, and she projected a stature to make it feel as if she could perform those actions naturally. By now, it's not unusual to see women fight in films and on TV, but DS9 still seems to stand out because of having two women involved in this way.

Agreed; as much as people point to Voyager as an example of what women in leadership roles can accomplish, I think DS9 did a much better job of portraying women as effective leaders and combatants--as none of the male characters suffered as a result, something that I think was a problem on Voyager.

--Sran

 

[Timo]

It is potentially significant that the "warrioresses" of DS9 fought outside the usual Starfleet framework: Kira did much of her punching and knifing in the role of a Bajoran freedom fighter, and Dax as a wannabe Klingon. Their regular Starfleet activities seldom took them into situations where hand-to-hand or bladed fighting would have been relevant; even joint sorties like "The Search" and "Way of the Warrior" had an element of rogueness to them.

Being part of a chain of command and a unified fighting unit would necessarily place the women of VOY in a somewhat different position. There would be an "order of battle" both in terms of Starfleet rules and regulations and the rules of drama: when a unit fought "in bulk", certain individuals had to stand out. DS9 could have the fighting ladies stand out by their "ethnic" styles of fighting, allowing Sisko to remain a competent pugilist and Bashir a marksman; Harry Kim or Chakotay couldn't compensate in a similar manner. (And perhaps for the better; it would have been rather painful to see Chakotay fight with bow and arrow or Kim to perform karate chops or whatever. And hey, it was great fun in "Basics" to have the bow-and-arrow issue arise and Chakotay blast some stereotypes there...)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JirinPanthosa]

DS9 made great use of powerful women.

Action films tend to either make women strong because they are magic or genetic monsters or something, or they cheat the laws of physics regarding relative body mass, instead of either showing believably muscular women or showing women with tactics appropriate to smaller body sizes.

The only DS9 episode that really made use of cheats like that was Way of the Warrior.

 

[Timo]

cheat the laws of physics

It's not as if Kira in "WotW" swept the floor with her opponents literally, like so many "boosted" female characters do in modern entertainment. Her punches just connected with Klingon bellies to unexpectedly good effect. Perhaps the first wave of Klingons consisted of warriors who would have been dying of horrific stomach pains in a few weeks anyway, and chose this more honorable departure?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

cheat the laws of physics

It's not as if Kira in "WotW" swept the floor with her opponents literally, like so many "boosted" female characters do in modern entertainment. Her punches just connected with Klingon bellies to unexpectedly good effect. Perhaps the first wave of Klingons consisted of warriors who would have been dying of horrific stomach pains in a few weeks anyway, and chose this more honorable departure?

Timo Saloniemi

Sisko, I think, was also a bit too successful in his attacks.

 

[Timo]

It's annoying overall that Klingons and Cardassians get no benefit from their formidable-looking body armor. One is almost tempted to think that both species are extremely vulnerable beneath that armor, and only come close to parity with humans, Bajorans and other "ordinary folks" thanks to the armor.

But yes, Sisko seems to get some sort of "Emissary boost" in his fight with the Klingons there, or with the Jem'Hadar in "The Search". Not that I'd be opposed to him having some sort of an endoskeleton installed for improved punching and wrestling - it wouldn't even be in contradiction with his overall physical performance in the series, and would explain why he does so well against supposedly formidable Vulcans in wrestling. It's just too bad that dialogue doesn't allow for him to be boosted that way.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bbailey861]

I've always been impressed with how DS9 portrayed women in power. Arguably, other Trek series had prominent women, even one character that was the series' lead. Unlike Voyager and Enterprise, DS9 had two women in the top ranks of the station's hierarchy (although it gets blurry when Worf arrives): Kira is the XO, and Dax is arguably the second officer. What's interesting to me is that the stories always put them into the fight, not only pushing buttons to fire phasers against ships, but in the middle of close melees, firing rifles, and in some cases, using their own fists. Of course, DS9 had more of this kind of fighting, and Kira's backstory predisposed the character to react physically to threats. Dax, OTOH, could easily have devolved into a nurturing role. Instead, she was very much the beautiful warrior, different from the Xena-types who would follow. I will give credit to Terry Farrell: she seemed to learn the choreographed fight sequences very well, and she projected a stature to make it feel as if she could perform those actions naturally. By now, it's not unusual to see women fight in films and on TV, but DS9 still seems to stand out because of having two women involved in this way.

I think the intent is well enough, but I always chuckle when I read something like this. Canada has had women integrated in all aspects of the military for about 20 years - including combat roles. A few other nations do as well and even now, more and more nations are fully integrating women into all roles and I would like to think by the time of DS9 this would now be considered the norm. Anyone who wants to - and are fit enough to serve should be able to.

This isn't a slag on the comment - just a hope that seeing something like this doesn't elicit a surprised response.

 

[Captain Clark Terrell]

Sisko, I think, was also a bit too successful in his attacks.

I agree with this. Captain of the Academy wrestling team or no, Sisko was up against a group of Klingon warriors. At the very least, he should have taken as much as he dished out.

--Sran

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I've always been impressed with how DS9 portrayed women in power. Arguably, other Trek series had prominent women, even one character that was the series' lead. Unlike Voyager and Enterprise, DS9 had two women in the top ranks of the station's hierarchy (although it gets blurry when Worf arrives): Kira is the XO, and Dax is arguably the second officer. What's interesting to me is that the stories always put them into the fight, not only pushing buttons to fire phasers against ships, but in the middle of close melees, firing rifles, and in some cases, using their own fists. Of course, DS9 had more of this kind of fighting, and Kira's backstory predisposed the character to react physically to threats. Dax, OTOH, could easily have devolved into a nurturing role. Instead, she was very much the beautiful warrior, different from the Xena-types who would follow. I will give credit to Terry Farrell: she seemed to learn the choreographed fight sequences very well, and she projected a stature to make it feel as if she could perform those actions naturally. By now, it's not unusual to see women fight in films and on TV, but DS9 still seems to stand out because of having two women involved in this way.

I think the intent is well enough, but I always chuckle when I read something like this. Canada has had women integrated in all aspects of the military for about 20 years - including combat roles. A few other nations do as well and even now, more and more nations are fully integrating women into all roles and I would like to think by the time of DS9 this would now be considered the norm. Anyone who wants to - and are fit enough to serve should be able to.

This isn't a slag on the comment - just a hope that seeing something like this doesn't elicit a surprised response.

Of course, we are talking about depictions, not their actual status. Granted, American women aren't given the same options of serving in direct combat roles (I don't know precise terminology). OTOH, I don't know that Canadian series do a better job than anyone else. I might be mistaken, but the Stargate series were usually good for one tough woman, but I don't remember how they were depicted in combat. The current series that comes to mind is Continuum, whose main character is technologically enhanced. Bomb Girls had women in uniform, but didn't show combat at all.

 

[dahj]

Canada has had women integrated in all aspects of the military for about 20 years - including combat roles.

DS9 is a 21 year old show.
Clearly it influenced Canada in making that decision.

 

[bbailey861]

I've always been impressed with how DS9 portrayed women in power. Arguably, other Trek series had prominent women, even one character that was the series' lead. Unlike Voyager and Enterprise, DS9 had two women in the top ranks of the station's hierarchy (although it gets blurry when Worf arrives): Kira is the XO, and Dax is arguably the second officer. What's interesting to me is that the stories always put them into the fight, not only pushing buttons to fire phasers against ships, but in the middle of close melees, firing rifles, and in some cases, using their own fists. Of course, DS9 had more of this kind of fighting, and Kira's backstory predisposed the character to react physically to threats. Dax, OTOH, could easily have devolved into a nurturing role. Instead, she was very much the beautiful warrior, different from the Xena-types who would follow. I will give credit to Terry Farrell: she seemed to learn the choreographed fight sequences very well, and she projected a stature to make it feel as if she could perform those actions naturally. By now, it's not unusual to see women fight in films and on TV, but DS9 still seems to stand out because of having two women involved in this way.

I think the intent is well enough, but I always chuckle when I read something like this. Canada has had women integrated in all aspects of the military for about 20 years - including combat roles. A few other nations do as well and even now, more and more nations are fully integrating women into all roles and I would like to think by the time of DS9 this would now be considered the norm. Anyone who wants to - and are fit enough to serve should be able to.

This isn't a slag on the comment - just a hope that seeing something like this doesn't elicit a surprised response.

Of course, we are talking about depictions, not their actual status. Granted, American women aren't given the same options of serving in direct combat roles (I don't know precise terminology). OTOH, I don't know that Canadian series do a better job than anyone else. I might be mistaken, but the Stargate series were usually good for one tough woman, but I don't remember how they were depicted in combat. The current series that comes to mind is Continuum, whose main character is technologically enhanced. Bomb Girls had women in uniform, but didn't show combat at all.

Yes, I agree, and of course, it's all subjective based on one's own experiences. I have worked for a lot of female COs. Something to note - the US military continues to increase the opportunities women have to serve. While not full integrated, progress is being made. There was another influx of jobs made open to woman this year. It's probably just a matter of time that before everything is open.

Don't know that Cdn produced shows are any better, either. We had 'Combat Hospital' which was very good, but there again, it wasn't depicting the actual combat, but rather a multi-national hospital in Afghanistan. I had just returned from my own tour when the first few episodes had aired, and found much - not everything, naturally - to be a very accurate depiction.

Canada has had women integrated in all aspects of the military for about 20 years - including combat roles.

DS9 is a 21 year old show.
Clearly it influenced Canada in making that decision.

Good one! I like that - and choose to agree with you.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Don't know that Cdn produced shows are any better, either. We had 'Combat Hospital' which was very good, but there again, it wasn't depicting the actual combat, but rather a multi-national hospital in Afghanistan. I had just returned from my own tour when the first few episodes had aired, and found much - not everything, naturally - to be a very accurate depiction.

Overall, the subject can be problematic because war itself is seldom depicted outside the context of history (when there was definitely few women). Sci Fi is one area in which we can imagine a difference social order, but even now, such shows are lagging behind the realities about how women serve in the military. The one show that does better than DS9 is BSG, which is unfortunately problematic for this discussion, given RDM's involvement in both series.

Timo makes a good point by noting that Kira and Dax get their fighting skills outside Starfleet. Neither of them playing humans undermines the potential for being major contributions to the depiction of women. However, I think that both characters had more independence of action than their counterparts in other series, even outside Trek, creating more opportunities to engage in combat by their own initiatives or in response to threats. They were more often acting on their own than following commands.

 

[Tomalak]

cheat the laws of physics

It's not as if Kira in "WotW" swept the floor with her opponents literally, like so many "boosted" female characters do in modern entertainment. Her punches just connected with Klingon bellies to unexpectedly good effect. Perhaps the first wave of Klingons consisted of warriors who would have been dying of horrific stomach pains in a few weeks anyway, and chose this more honorable departure?

Timo Saloniemi

It's worth noting that Gowron didn't really want to blast the station away and murder the entire population. He had just had his arse kicked, and was posturing the get Sisko to stand down so he could withdraw. All he really wanted was to get Sisko to hand over the Cardassians, and then be on his way. He was going easy, sending some weak cannon fodder in to put on a show. He never really wanted to be in a position where he was at war with the Federation - that was Changeling Martok's doing. He was pretty quick to back down when he still could potentially have won (as fake Martok insisted).

 

[Timo]

It could conversely be argued that Gowron was under major political pressure to establish himself as a victorious war leader and a celebrated arch-enemy of the Federation, rather than as the weak UFP puppet he appeared to be. On the other hand, he would face stiff competition there. Many a ruler in history has chosen the best of both worlds and established him- or herself as a mighty leader by deliberately sending hordes of troops to die, preferably with the aforementioned competitors in charge and at the front lines.

Klingon bushido rules would cater for this especially well: if Gowron told his political enemies to march to their deaths with swords drawn, they would have to do so, rather than risk stalking to victory with their disruptors drawn and get branded "dishonorable cowards". The people Kira and Sisko beat up might thus well be the most expendable weaklings from the forces of Gowron's opponents, sent solely because somebody had to die. Certain veterans of the WWII Eastern Front might have relevant stories to tell...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Given that the main point of the assault was the Cardassian leaders, the assault on ops was only a diversion. Better forces would be sent elsewhere.

 

[Timo]

I rather doubt anybody really believed in the Changeling hunt. So what if they infest the nest of the enemy? No matter how you look at it, Gowron isn't fighting in order to protect the UFP, from Changelings or anybody else. If he has tactical or strategic rather than purely symbolic goals, at the very top of the list would be ousting Starfleet from the Bajoran system and its priceless wormhole; taking Ops and killing Sisko and his officers would help with that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tomalak]

Gowron's a coward, we see that time and again. He's only picking on Cardassia because they look weak. The Obsidian Order has been smashed. Central Command has been overthrown by some civilians, and a bunch of poorly-armed human terrorists are causing the Cardassian military untold troubles on their border.

But he doesn't want war with the Federation - he sends Martok to Deep Space Nine to get Sisko's acquiescence, backed up with a large and intimidating fleet. He assumes the Federation will keep out, and won't be too bothered to see the troublesome and truculent Cardassians invaded by their long-term ally.

Strategically, antagonising the Federation would be a very bad move. It might impress a few on the High Council to throw away the Khitomer Accords and talk tough, but he doesn't want to risk all-out war. That's why he backs down at the end - losing an Empire to win a battle is no victory! If he'd pressed home the attack on the station, killed the crew, and eliminated the Cardassians, it would have provoked all-out war.

The Founders failed with that ploy, so they changed tack. Gowron only starts taking a hard line against the Federation much later on - doubtless urged on by the Changeling Martok, who must be well aware that the Federation has been fed the line that Gowron is a Changeling, leading to their own attempted assassination that surely would have triggered the war the Founders wanted.

 

[Timo]

That's why he backs down at the end

...In a phenomenally bad move, as that's piling defeat upon defeat. But he admittedly doesn't have much choice.

Yet a few moments earlier, Gowron faced an easier choice. Why attack the station at all? If Sisko claims he has the Changeling situation under control, then it's his problem: either he is a Founder agent himself, or going to be victimized by one, or then there are no Changelings involved. What's that to Gowron? He doesn't have to mind a Cardassian government in exile when he can waltz over Cardassia itself - or, as things turn out, since he can't waltz over Cardassia, the government in exile is at worst an asset to him, working against the defenders of the Union.

Why follow Martok's advice to attack if the idea is to play it safe? Gowron must have more than a bit of backbone or recklessness in him if proceeding with both the invasion and the exchange of fire with the UFP asset. And conquering the wormhole outpost would appear a worthwhile goal - but it's not an endeavor for the timid.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bad Thoughts]

There are probably dozens of explanations of why Kira and Dax held up so well during the assult. We see a fair number of Klingons halted with phasers, and much of the combat is skills based, not strength based. Worf hs the easiest time, which make sense: in the Klingon world, he is an aristocrat who has the time and money and perfect his ability to fight. He was easily above the skill of the orindary Klingon foot soldier.