Data's "death"

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Shat Happens, Jul 12, 2014.

  1. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

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    So Data phasered the antimatter reactor and the ship that looked like Picards's fish blew up, taking him wit it.

    Do you consider that as a death as much of simply destroying a robot?

    I other words Data died or Data was destroyed?

    I use to think destroyed. I never really REALLY bought he was more than a very sophisticated machine. (btw I work with computers)
     
  2. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

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    Picard (an eventually Starfleet) ruled him as a lifeform, so death sounds appropriate.
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    In Trek's fantasy world, Data was really alive. So he died.
     
  4. urbandefault

    urbandefault Commodore Commodore

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    It's complicated.

    Data transferred his memory banks to B4, basically a blank slate. It could be argued that Data's essence, or soul, was transferred. If that essence later emerged in B4, then only Data's body died.

    We saw the beginnings of that emergence in NEM.
     
  5. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Seeing as how it was a very human sacrifice for the life of his Captain and friend (not to mention saving billions of lives), Data earned the right to have "died" and he is never coming back in any sort of convenient Data 2.0 body.
     
  6. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ Data had the memories of the colonists who were later to be killed by the crystal entity downloaded into him, but he never "became" those people.

    B4 similarly had Data's memories downloaded into it/him, but B4 will never become Data. B4 will one day become ... B4.

    A Human's personality is partially the result of the people we learn from and otherwise interact with. Data's memories will likely have some influence on the "person" that B4 will one day become, but again B4 will not become Data.

    :)
     
  7. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This has always been my take too.

    The movie implies (and states outright, in the deleted scenes) that Data's goal in doing the transfer was not to 'overtake' B4, but simply to give his brother a little boost to help him start developing, something B4 has been unable to do to this point.

    His intention seems to be that he wants B4 to become his own individual.

    People have always assumed that the final scene of NEM somehow implies that Data has overtaken B4, or that the idea is that B4 would have become Data in some hypothetical sequel.

    No.

    The movie never says that.

    The osmosis of adopting some of Data's memories is merely the first step towards B4 becoming his own self to grow and develop..

    I truly believe, while it may have been a mechanism towards allowing Brent Spiner to return should they wish him to, I do dislike the idea that by extension he'd simply be playing Data and that B4 had ceased to exist.

    I seriously don't see that as the intention... in fact it seems anti-ethical, certainly not something Data would do... the idea that the comics and other media have gone with it wholesale disturbs me somewhat. :shifty:
     
  8. ChristopherPike

    ChristopherPike Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^ I agree with that. But since they didn't actually show how B4 became Data again, that leaves open how it happened. Only that one of the current crop of screenwriters agreed to reverse the character's death, for their prequel comic dealing with post-Nemesis and Nero's backstory. You're right, in that it doesn't feel like something he would do. He sacrificed himself, so it doesn't fit he'd want somebody sacrificed to bring him back. I assume some dramatic circumstance and a moral dilemma led to one of his friends restoring Data, and wiping out whatever potential B4 had, in contradiction with his wishes. I assume he and Geordi had a falling out.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2014
  9. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Forcing his presence into a lesser android is something I can see Lore doing. Which means it's very much something Data would abhor.

    Everything we see suggests that Data intended to co-exist with B4. His "memory engram transfer" was merely like he was trying to update B4's firmware, but I think his intention could only have been that it give the lesser Android a 'boost' which would finally allow B4 to prosper and grow on his own terms. Just as Data did earlier in life.

    I do dislike that the current batch of Prime universe material, be it Star Trek Online or the Countdown comic etc, all make the assumption that Data simply 'wiped out' B4 from existence and asserted himself into B4's body. I just can't reconcile that with Data's character. :(
     
  10. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Only his body was in death! He entrusted B-4 with his very essence, with everything that was not of the body. He asked B-4 to bring him to us ... and bring that which he gave B-4, his katra, his living spirit....
     
  11. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    It doesn't seem to jive with the person that Data was always shown to be.



    :)
     
  12. Shat Happens

    Shat Happens Captain Captain

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    Also, Data didnt know he would die/be destroyed soon after, unlike Spock.
     
  13. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    He knew he only had one of those transporter thingymygigs.
    And he knew the Scimitar had to be destroyed.
    And he knew if it were possible he was going to give the transporter device to Picard.
    I think it was a reasonable guess that he might not make it back. If it were a weekly episode he would know Geordi would come up with a technobabble solution to save him.
     
  14. Last Redshirt

    Last Redshirt Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Data had been ruled a lifeform in season two so I think it's safe to assume that he indeed died. Also, Data did know that, if he was going to go over to the Scimitar to save Picard, he wasn't going to come back.
     
  15. dub

    dub Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I cared about Data in a completely different way than I care about computers. So to me he died.
     
  16. HIjol

    HIjol Admiral and Consummate Peacemaker Premium Member

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    100% agree with caring for Data differently...but did he really die?...between giving his "essence" to B-4 and his head existing from "Time's Arrow", I am a bit doubtful and confused...:confused:
     
  17. bbjeg

    bbjeg Admiral Admiral

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    ^Only one head existed at the end of Times Arrow. There were two up to the moment Data was sent back in time. When the away team returned to their timeline, Data's head was left in the past and reconnected later (the found head).
     
  18. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My assumption on the later stories having B4 become Data was not malice, but accident. B4's personality was primitive compared to Data or Lore, so I would assume that Data's transfer had unintended side effects, as he had problems when he built Lal, and B4 was primitive compared to her.
     
  19. Commishsleer

    Commishsleer Commodore Commodore

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    Look who really cares about B4?

    When it comes down to it, I'd rather have Data than B4.
    And I'd rather have Spock than his cloney-thing created in the Genesis wave.

    Yes stealing both bodies is ethically wrong but I don't think that I could stand more TNG Prime Universe with an even stupider Data.
     
  20. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The fact that it's "ethically wrong" is very much the point.