Data ages according to TNG "Inheritance "...episode

[Dukhat]

when you provide examples, point out facts, and explain your logic, and they counter with spoon-feeding, you know the whole discussion is pointless XD

The discussion is fine. The topic was that the OP thought Data ages (like a human, as he’s being compared to Tainer aging like a human), and I’m pointing out that the evidence is against that. Everyone participating in the discussion can believe what they want, but that’s my take on the subject.

 

[NCC-73515]

I don't have to. It's implied in the conversation, and I don't need to be spoon-fed the specifics.

So you might need to be spoon-fed the context, but I don’t.

what you call spoon-feeding selectively targets whatever contradicts your opinion - conveniently ignoring evidence against your points has nothing to do with the other side requiring assistance of any kind.

 

[Timo]

Well, it was you who wanted to specify three possible arguments, and you who claimed that others were making argument #1, and you who then failed to support that claim, except by saying that it's you who feels that the "like a human" bit follows from what has been said. It's a hole of your own digging.

So no, you aren't "pointing out" anything. But you can have a "take", and the idea that Data should age like a human based on that single claim is fine as such. It can then follow that this idea is contradicted elsewhere (Data thinks he might live for centuries); that the idea is actually supported elsewhere (Data's aging is a program, and he has a history with those); or that the idea doesn't affect anything much (it only emerges after Data has speculated on the upcoming centuries).

Fundamentally, though, Data isn't Tainer. He isn't being misled into thinking that he is human, or even that he is about to become a human. Soong is playing different games with him, from beyond the supposed grave. So the "like Tainer" angle is a bit weak IMHO; "Inheritance" is all about Data and his mother being in rather fundamentally different jams, even if they share some hardware and software design.

(What to make of LaForge's line, really?

"It's part of her aging programme. Not only does she age in appearance like Data, her vital signs change too."

Does this mean that Data's vital signs change, or that they do not? Nobody has ever mistaken Data for having human vital signs as far as we can tell, but naturally we can't tell all. Yet in the context, the thing is that Tainer is unlike Data, and surprises Riker. So the natural way to read that would be to say that both change appearance, but only Tainer's vital signs change - and that only Tainer's aging program thus is of any relevance to Tainer's longevity and possible mortality.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

what you call spoon-feeding selectively targets whatever contradicts your opinion - conveniently ignoring evidence against your points has nothing to do with the other side requiring assistance of any kind.

Please point out where I ignored evidence.

 

[NCC-73515]

So the ‘Inheritance’ line is best left ignored.

Yes, I prefer to ignore the line because there’s more evidence against it than for it.

 

[Dukhat]

Now you’re just being silly. I’m talking about other evidence that’s not the topic of this thread, and I’m pretty sure you knew that. The line stated that Data could age like Tainer did. Please show me evidence that Data ages other than that line.

Edit: Actually, you know what? I’m tired of talking about this with you. I said that I would not continue this pointless back-and-forth, and I did. So you win. Your internet penis is bigger than mine. Congratulations.

 

[fireproof78]

Your internet penis is bigger than mine. Congratulations.

That's what those ads are for!

 

[Tosk]

Maybe a simplification is in order.
It seems to me that there are actually only two arguments being put forth, despite claims to the contrary.

1. Data absolutely cannot age his external appearance.
2. Data can age his external appearance if he wants to.

(If someone is actually arguing a third option, please let me know and I will edit accordingly.)

 

[Dukhat]

Maybe a simplification is on order.
It seems to me that there are actually only two arguments being put forth, despite claims to the contrary.

1. Data absolutely cannot age his external appearance.
2. Data can age his external appearance if he wants to.

(If someone is actually arguing a third option, please let me know and I will edit accordingly.)

Well, here's the relevant line of dialogue:

LAFORGE: It's part of her aging programme. Not only does she age in appearance like Data, her vital signs change too.

"Age in appearance like Data" seems pretty cut-and-dried to me that the context of the line is that Data ages his external appearance at a normal human rate, since LaForge is comparing him to Tainer, who also ages at a normal human rate. So again, while one could interpret the line to mean option 2 (although there's no proof to confirm this, since there's never a time in TNG where Data either mentions or enacts the ability to age at will), it would negate option 1. Which contradicts everything else we know about Data from TNG, because everything else indicates that Data does not actually age his external appearance at a normal human rate.

 

[Tosk]

You're ignoring the fact that it's a program. Even if Data's aging program was definitively stated as "designed to make him age at the same rate as a human", you would have to show that Data cannot shut it off or reverse it in any way.

 

[Dukhat]

You're ignoring the fact that it's a program. Even if Data's aging program was definitively stated as "designed to make him age at the same rate as a human", you would have to show that Data cannot shut it off or reverse it in any way.

And no one can prove that, because Data never mentions this or enacts the ability to age at will. So we have to take the line at face value.

 

[Tosk]

The line tells us that Data possesses an aging program, and that said program does not affect his vital signs. Anything else is supposition. ...Which I'm fine with.

Facts in evidence:
Data has an aging program.

 

[Dukhat]

And when LaForge says "Not only does she age in appearance like Data...", that seems to imply that Data is actually using said program. There's also no mention that Data has any control over it. So when he mentions in another episode how he will outlive his current friends, make new friends, and outlive them too, does this mean that he will still be using the program the entire time, with his external appearance being that of a centuries-old man?

 

[Tosk]

I agree that it implies that Data is actively using the program at that point in time, yes.

So when he mentions in another episode how he will outlive his current friends, make new friends, and outlive them too, does this mean that he will still be using the program the entire time, with his external appearance being that of a centuries-old man?

Or it might mean what I've been arguing all along, that he can alter the program. Just like every other program he has. He could lock in a certain age, he could age into an old man, he could revert to a youthful appearance.

Yes, they don't bother to say whether or not Data can control the program, but my point is that the very facts you keep restating show that he can. When facts and implication meet and have no inherent contradiction, there lies the truth.

 

[NCC-73515]

he also couldn't dream until he unlocked that feature

 

[Nyotarules]

Data aging is like Data use of contractions....subject to script

 

[Dukhat]

Yes, they don't bother to say whether or not Data can control the program, but my point is that the very facts you keep restating show that he can. When facts and implication meet and have no inherent contradiction, there lies the truth.

And that’s my point: if Data has an aging program that he can voluntarily control, why didn’t he or anyone else mention this until “Inheritance?” Especially if he was voluntarily using it before that episode as LaForge’s line seems to imply? Because previous episodes give the impression that Data doesn’t age, voluntarily or involuntarily, other than his acknowledgment that someday his mechanical parts will eventually get to a point where they won’t be able to be replaced (which is not the same thing as aging his outward appearance.)

The bottom line here is that Spiner felt he could no longer realistically portray Data because Spiner ages in real life. If Data has an aging program that he voluntarily controls or is just involuntary, this would never have been an issue.

 

[Tosk]

if Data has an aging program that he can voluntarily control, why didn’t he or anyone else mention this until “Inheritance?”

For the same reason that we didn't know he breathes and has a pulse. They hadn't written it yet. Worf has a brother we didn't know about, Tasha has a sister we didn't know about, and Data has an aging program we didn't know about. If something isn't definitively stated, then the writers have room to introduce new stuff. Sometimes that stuff does contradict other stated facts, and sometimes that stuff knocks up against previous implication and supposition.

previous episodes give the impression that Data doesn’t age, voluntarily or involuntarily

To use your approach, "Why didn't anyone state it outright?"

Heck, for all we know Data wrote his own aging program. Maybe he only started using it part-way through the show. Maybe he wrote it after meeting Soong. He experiments with all other manner of approximating the human condition, why not a slow change to his outward appearance?

 

[Dukhat]

Sometimes that stuff does contradict other stated facts, and sometimes that stuff knocks up against previous implication and supposition.

And that’s all I’m saying. I just find the situation a bit different than, say, finding out Tasha had a sister. We are given every indication throughout the series that Data doesn’t age, and then out of the blue we get some one-off line about how he has the ability to do so and has most likely been using it all this time, even though both before and after the episode, there is every indication that this is not the case.

Anyway, I think I’ve said all I need to say about this subject. Thanks for the civilized discussion.