Dark Tower question : (Full and total spoilers)

[Gojirob]

Again, nothing is held back here, at least as far as what happens in the novels, particularly the ending, so turn back now.


Cool. Now, if you feel Roland is simply damned, there's not much to talk about. If, on the other hand, you feel that his loop is a learning one, then a lot of questions have to be raised.

Like, what would constitute a perfect, ka-breaking run that frees him from his existence?

Does he have to not seek the Tower, which has proven immortal and immutable more than once, and therefore may not need saving?

Does he even need the MIB? Will Roland in Cycle '20' decide not to sacrifice Jake?

If he were to go through yet another cycle w/o finality but some more progress, what would be added (ala the Horn) to what he keeps? Or is a better answer who? Will the pre-desert Roland start to become a more thoughtful (as in contemplative, not always nicer) person who catches things his past run-n-gun selves could not?

How far can even that really go? Even a 'Childe' Roland who arrives at the Tower with all the friends and family he could save alive and well cannot change the sins of Arthur Eld and the Great Old Ones entirely, the Katet Corporation aside. This is still a ruined world, and one which Roland, for all his flaws, did not create.

One last plea : Let's not complain too much about the ending in this thread. Its the one we have, warts and all.

 

[JGordon]

Reading the novels, I got the distinct impression that at some point Roland would accomplish what he needed to and the cycle would be broken. I felt this way because he got something added (the horn) after the cycle described in the books. However, I'm not really sure what more Roland can hope to accomplish, aside from potentially growing as a person. Though I'm not exactly sure how he can grow, since he has no memory of previous cycles.

I felt like the ending was set up this way more because King couldn't bear to see Roland's journey come to an end (or maybe couldn't figure out a satisfactory way to end it), rather than actually being the best ending to the story.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

Ka is a wheel.

 

[Gojirob]

Reading the novels, I got the distinct impression that at some point Roland would accomplish what he needed to and the cycle would be broken. I felt this way because he got something added (the horn) after the cycle described in the books. However, I'm not really sure what more Roland can hope to accomplish, aside from potentially growing as a person. Though I'm not exactly sure how he can grow, since he has no memory of previous cycles.

I felt like the ending was set up this way more because King couldn't bear to see Roland's journey come to an end (or maybe couldn't figure out a satisfactory way to end it), rather than actually being the best ending to the story.

In retrospect, it was intimated in the story that they all had vague memories of having ridden horses before, for example. Like TNG's 'Cause And Effect', some things seem to bleed through the cycles.

But it is still somewhat problematic. Suppose Roland had put the Tower aside just enough to save Susan? Like as not, she and/or the baby would have died when Gilead fell. I don't think a vengeful Roland who once tasted bliss would be any more evolved.

I also wonder if the 'new cycle' desert Roland-20 set out on was any less desolate. Did the Katet Corporation manage to at least mitigate what NCP did to the world? I can't imagine they prevented it entirely. I also wonder (pointlessly) if 19 was the first cycle in which Jake was reborn, and the first in which Katet Corp. was founded.

 

[Trent Roman]

Ka is a wheel.

And Roland is the hamster that keeps it turning.

Or at least, that's how I rationalize the ending. Ka is a powerful force, but where does it get its power from? I think of Roland as a kind of Ka-battery, recharging fate even as he fulfills it. Roland is perpetual motion.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Alpha_Geek]

Trent Roman, that's an interesting take on it. I tend to think of it more like Roland is trapped in a clothes dryer. Try though he might, at some point he'll tumble again. Roland is stuck in perpetual motion.

I was fascinated by the journey, and dissapointed by the destination to a good degree.

To the question of "Did Roland learn on the way through the cycles?", I think yes because:

There was a boy.
There was not a boy.

I think this was one of our first hints as to what would ultimately come.

 

[label]

Reading the novels, I got the distinct impression that at some point Roland would accomplish what he needed to and the cycle would be broken. I felt this way because he got something added (the horn) after the cycle described in the books.

I've read this series about 4 times now and it's my firm belief that we got the penultimate trip of Roland in the Dark Tower series with his next trip being his final journey. I believe the inclusion of the Horn is not only his reward for learning, but an indicator that he will finally succeed on his next and final attempt where he had failed in the past.

What this means to me is that maybe he has a very similar journey to the one we read with Roland just making a few choices a little differently that indicate he's finally found the balance between the Tower and his family/friends.....

 

[biotech]

I think the only way he will ever brake the loop is not to enter the tower, and maybe it takes someone very special to him to get him not to enter, someone he has lost along the way.

But who knows, maybe if he just spent more time looking in the other rooms of the tower instead of running to the top, maybe one of the other rooms would have a way out that didn't involve starting over again.

 

[Gojirob]

Reading the novels, I got the distinct impression that at some point Roland would accomplish what he needed to and the cycle would be broken. I felt this way because he got something added (the horn) after the cycle described in the books.

I've read this series about 4 times now and it's my firm belief that we got the penultimate trip of Roland on his final journey. I believe the inclusion of the Horn is not only his reward for learning, but an indicator that he will finally succeed on his next and final attempt where he had failed in the past.

What this means to me is that maybe he has a very similar journey to the one we read with Roland just making a few choices a little differently that indicate he's finally found the balance between the Tower and his family/friends.....

I'm tempted by the 'penultimate journey' theory, but tend to think that this is more of a penultimate arc of journeys. He's on his way, and no doubt next journey will be better by far. Two things I see are him not dropping Jake and maybe finding a less bloody way to take Algul Siento. Past that is harder to see, since so many of Roland's actions take place in a world corrupted and ruined long before he was even concieved. In such an environment, what is neccessary and what is excessive for a heroic killer becomes very hard to see. Even if the Tower was arguably never in danger, opposing the people-grinding evils that sought its end can't be part of his wrongs in and of themselves. Indeed, his final hope may lie in :

1 - Not entering or even seeking the Tower, though again, with so many rapacious powers after it, this seems impossible.

2 - Entering one of the other rooms as was suggested, maybe giving him a chance to undo an earlier wrong--eventually. Again, I cannot see Susan and their child surviving Gilead, and well, young hormones will out when they meet. Like as not, Roland can only change the terms under which his early loved ones die, not if. All kinds of possibilities (like getting Susan out of Hambry and warning Steven of the pending assault) exist, but to my mind, the evils opposing them had this Mary Sue/Jerry Mouse thing going on, as regards really stopping them, at least at that time.

3 - Maybe he should just ask Gan/God to remove the Tower as a seekable physicality. Humans will only screw up in the presence of that much tangible power.

3 -

 

[Trent Roman]

Trent Roman, that's an interesting take on it.

My view has always been that so much must align just so in order for Roland to actually reach the Tower--the doors he finds on the beach just one example of intervention by higher powers to urge his journey on--that the universe, whether you call it ka or Gan, wants Roland to reach the Tower (not to mention mortal good guys like the corporation, who look on Roland almost reverentially). Since it seems excessive for the whole universe to devote itself to the damnation of one man, I like to think there's a greater purpose to these cycles, and insofar that much is made of Roland's will as (frighteningly) inexhaustible, I figure part of the reason must lie in this seemingly unflagging energy. I've sometimes wondered, given that the rooms of the Tower are filled with the events of his life, whether Roland himself isn't the Tower to a certain degree; we're told at one point that it can take different shapes in different worlds, including living beings.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I think of Roland as a kind of Ka-battery

He must spend a lot of time at Cambridge, then. Pahking his Ka at Hahvahd Yahd.

 

[Gojirob]

I think of Roland as a kind of Ka-battery

He must spend a lot of time at Cambridge, then. Pahking his Ka at Hahvahd Yahd.

A Win-Chester, Hunnicut--A Win-CHester!!!