D7 nacelle placement vs. Bird-of-Prey

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by Dukhat, Nov 19, 2017.

  1. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    So this topic has been bugging me for some time now, and I have a bit of free time to post, so there's no time like the present :)

    So the universally accepted design of the TOS D7 has the nacelles as the long thin appendages under the ship at the ends of the wings, analogous to the Enterprise's nacelles. However, in one of Matt Jefferies' original design sketches he has the nacelles on top of the ship (he calls them "power units"):

    https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20120728010831&path-prefix=en

    And every time we saw the D7 in TOS firing weapons, the beams always came from what we assumed to be the nacelles:

    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/3x13/Elaan_of_Troyius_338.JPG

    It's almost as if those appendages were actually meant to be guns/cannons, not nacelles. But if that's the case, then where exactly would the actual nacelles be? There's a structure on top of the secondary hull (which fandom seems to have decided to be the D7's shuttlebay even though there's no evidence that's the case) which has two rectangular structures on either side, which correspond to Jefferies' original intention for the nacelle placement:

    http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/d7-groth-screen.jpg

    In TMP, the housing between them glows red (see next paragraph):

    http://www.ditl.org/Images/K/KtiGenral4.jpg

    Now, let's compare this with the Klingon Bird-of-Prey. Its guns are located at the end of the wings, and the ship's actual nacelle placement is a matter of debate. But in this photo of the ship's underside, what look to be similar structures to the structures on the D7/K't'Inga can be seen, at the base of the wings and between the red glowing centerline of the ship:

    https://gndn.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/k1.jpg

    For lack of any other evidence, they seem to be the Bird-of-Prey's nacelles. Now also compare this to the early Bird-of-Prey from ENT:

    http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/early-klingon-bop.jpg

    It clearly has nacelles on top of the ship between that red glowing structure and are also clearly based on the structures on the underside of the original BoP, which reinforces the idea that the D7's nacelles are actually the smaller structures on top of the ship rather than the larger structures on the wing tips, which could now conceivably be guns/cannons instead to match the design of the BoP.

    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
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  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I am sort of partial to Klingons having separate ships for space fighting and planetary raiding, with the warp engines better hidden in the latter type.

    I mean, yes, the upper cigars could be warp nacelles on the D-7. Those and the lower cigars could be warp nacelles, too - I've always seen nacelles as the "propellers" of the ship, and real ships tend to have all sorts of propeller combos hooked to their powerplants. Say, the D-7 could be a bit like Titanic, with two big "props" on the conventional "reciprocating" powerplants, and one (here two) small one(s) on the auxiliary "steam turbine".

    But basically all Klingon ships that have wingtip cigars have those as warp nacelles, without alternatives available elsewhere on their hulls. TNG has the Vor'Cha and (albeit with additional midwing boxes) Negh'Var, ENT has the Raptor and the D-5 and the small Augment ship; even DSC has Klingons sharply divided in ships with wingtip (or at least lateral) nacelles and ships with just the BoP wings.

    The D-7 could well be the odd man out. But it echoes the D-5 layout, with the large lower and small upper cigars, and when Archer ripped a big cigar from a D-5 with grapplers, the specific result was that "they can't create a warp field".

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. matthunter

    matthunter Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Alternately, they ARE the nacelles and the Klingons just have no compunction about mounting disruptor points on the tips instead of a Bussard collector? They grant a wide field of fire that way.
     
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  4. StarCruiser

    StarCruiser Captain Captain

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    Who says Klingon ships have Bussard collectors on the nacelles? What are those large grill things right on the front of the "wings" of the D7 and K'Tinga? Hey! Those are "ram scoops"!
     
  5. scotpens

    scotpens Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    The original D7 model didn't have any grill texture on the leading edges of the main hull -- just recessed flat areas.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Sgt_G

    Sgt_G Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    On the Star Fleet Battles version of the D7, which is based directly on blueprints and models by Matt Jefferies and Franz Joseph, the Warp engines are on the wing tips, with the Disruptor beams mounted on the front of said engines, and then the Impulse drive is in the deck house (along side the shuttle bay).
     
  7. StarCruiser

    StarCruiser Captain Captain

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    If you look at Matt's art - there was supposed to be a grill detail but, the model delivered for filming - if I remember correctly - wasn't quite finished. A couple of details are missing, including that grill.

    Pretty much all Klingon ships - except the Bird o' Prey - have a grill details on the front of the wings.
     
  8. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Might be a virtual grill, its texture activated at the push of a button.

    Starfleet shuttles also almost invariably have that grill. Including some that additionally have a deflector dish.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. Go-Captain

    Go-Captain Commander Red Shirt

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    I like this concept a lot, but I still think the D7's top nacelles are too small looking for the function of full warp, but they make sense to me as external impulse drivers, like a shuttle. That would imply Klingon ships going for high end impulse performance while also having a backup in case the warp engines are non-functional.

    I think you are spot on with the ENT and MOV Bird of Prey, that for the former the top mounted things are warp nacelles, and for the latter the wing roots are the nacelles.
     
  10. Samuel

    Samuel Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The main difference in the D-7 and the Bird of Prey is that the D-7 was designed with some thought as to what an alien starship (though at the same tech level as the Enterprise) might look like where as the Bird of Prey was designed to "look really cool".

    Of course part of the real life reason for the Bird of Prey is that originally in The Search for Spock it was supposed to be a Romulan ship (hence the name, design, and cloaking device).
     
  11. StarCruiser

    StarCruiser Captain Captain

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    ^ Yep - the BoP was supposed to be Romulan.

    In the original script, the Romulans were supposed to be the antagonists, then the idea was changed to the Klingons. There was supposedly a scene in the script where Kruge and company steal the ship from the Romulans as they felt it was better suited to the task at hand.

    Even that part was left out and it became a "Klingon Bird of Prey"...
     
  12. feek61

    feek61 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In early scripts of "Balance of Terror", the Romulan BOP was to be close in design to the Enterprise; in fact at one point the BOP was suppose to be almost identical to the Enterprise primary hull. The reason being is the Romulans used espionage to steal designs from the federation. Most of that story line was lost in the final version of the script but it explains why the BOP had similar nacelles and features of the Enterprise. From a production stand point there is no telling at what point in the script the miniature of the BOP was commissioned.
     
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  13. Dukhat

    Dukhat Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The problem is that the Klingon BoP looks nothing like the Romulan ship from Balance of Terror. It looks more like a Klingon ship. Even the red feather placement looks more like the wing pattern of the K'T'inga battlecruiser. As I've stated before, if they'd painted the BoP blue instead of the green/red coloring and called it a "Klingon fighter" instead of a "Bird of Prey," no one would even have ever questioned its origin.

    And while it's true that the BoP was originally supposed to be a Romulan ship in STIII, Nilo Rodis obviously took his design cues from the idea in "The Enterprise Incident" that the Romulans and Klingons shared ship designs.
     
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  14. Samuel

    Samuel Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    IIRC, in the novelization of The Search for Spock, the BOP was referred to as a "Klingon fighter". Which makes me think the author might've worked from a different version of the script (common thing in novelizations).
     
  15. Mytran

    Mytran Commodore Commodore

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    The similarities in design (coupled with a couple of extra lines from the Outpost Officer) was also one of the reasons why Lt Stiles had just instant beef with Spock - he suspected him of leaking plans to the enemy
     
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  16. ItIsGreen

    ItIsGreen Captain Captain

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    With the BoP, I always took the large glowing section to the rear to be some kind of all-in-one impulse/warp engine arrangement. In TVH, when they approach the sun to do the time warp (again), just prior to the dream sequence we have Sulu shouting out ever-higher warp factors before they emerge from the other side of the sun and we see an extreme close-up of this area, which seems to be glowing profusely and the epicentre of the glowing streaks following the ship:
    [​IMG]
    Note the extra-bright yellow area below the duller red area (which I always thought to be the impulse exhaust). Could that be a single warp engine in some sort of combined, compact unit? It's only a small ship after all, and the Klingons wouldn't be as concerned with safety as others.

    As for the D7/K'tinga, I always assumed the lower appendages were the warp nacelles, but I could buy that they were big ol' guns. The structures on the top look too small to me to be adequate warp engines for a ship that large though. I'm open to it though, Starfleet use different configurations for their nacelles (high slung/low slung, single/dual/quad nacelle variants), so why not the Klingons?
     
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  17. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...So far, only off-focus kitbashes of Starfleet ships have featured two different sizes of warp nacelle in the same ship. Oh, and the Prometheus, but only after separation. Still, it's quite typical for alien ships to have a collection of differently sized components or hull slits all glowing in the supposed warp color of the culture; Klingons mounting two different sizes of nacelled warp coils in the same ship would not feel out of the norm in that sense.

    Does the glow have to go where the coils are? It can at the very least come from different directions vis-รก-vis the coils - sides (including top and bottom), forward or aft ends, combinations. Or remain hidden altogether. The BoP could have its coils in the suggestively shaped lateral boxes but its field window astern, connected by suitable spaghetti of conduitry.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. Samuel

    Samuel Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The Haynes Guide to the Klingon Bird of Prey claims that the flattened plates near the wing roots are the generators of the warp field.
     
  19. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Did we ever see a Klingon computer display marking the warp coils?

    I thought there was a bridge graphic in "Blood Oath" already (not glimpsed in TrekCore screencaps, and my VHS tape isn't exactly easily available) showing a single file of obvious coils at the very centerline, but I may be grossly misremembering. Perhaps in some later episode?

    "Return to Grace" has many dorsal diagrams highlighting the "hinge" areas with the many parallel plates. But those coincide with the lateral boxes, too.

    http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x14/returngrace_227.jpg
    http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x14/returngrace_245.jpg
    http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/4x14/returngrace_271.jpg

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  20. Lord Other

    Lord Other Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Matt Jefferies also alluded to the "impulse power unit" in a call out on the dorsal view of his Lincoln Enterprises' "USS Enterprise Original Blueprints"

    [​IMG]

    More specifically however the nacelles on each of his ships share similar features, even though it may not be obvious on first inspection.

    [​IMG]

    Lord Other
     
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