Couple of Space Seed questions/observations

[Dale Sams]

1. Do you feel the "Enterprise" eps enhance the re-viewing of Space Seed?

2. Near the end..the security detail for Khan. Three guys...with phasers drawn all within arms reach of Khan. The fuh? You guys are the worst security ever. Well, except for those who let a handful of Ferengai take the ship in that "Picard becomes a kid ep"

 

[Timo]

1. Slightly but not sufficiently. It would be highly interesting to learn more about why exactly mankind worries so much about the supermen when there's a whole galaxy full of threats out there.

Sure, having eighty Napoleons on the loose is unnerving - but at the time of "Space Seed", there were more than eighty Nazi leaders of similar standing on the loose, and that worried very few of us. And some people being decidedly superior to others has always been a source of inspiration (see sports) rather than fear, at least for the cultures that continue to rule Earth in the TOS era.

The Augments of ENT offer more of the same: supermen out of their environment, struggling to regain a status in a world that no longer dances to their tune. An alternate viewpoint would have been of greater interest.

2. Much as with NOMAD, I guess the security detail is there for symbolic purposes, relying on the captive honoring his terms of captivity. As with NOMAD, that's all that's holding the captive back: the guns and the manpower are no obstacle to him breaking loose again.

I'm not sure whether Montalban and the director could have pulled off the choreography of Khan disarming a security force that pointed guns at him from a reasonably safe standoff distance. Yet that's what the superman ought to have been capable of doing, what with being credited with superiority in so many fields: speed, strength and the cunning to make those count.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[LadyT'Anna]

1. Slightly but not sufficiently. It would be highly interesting to learn more about why exactly mankind worries so much about the supermen when there's a whole galaxy full of threats out there.

Sure, having eighty Napoleons on the loose is unnerving - but at the time of "Space Seed", there were more than eighty Nazi leaders of similar standing on the loose, and that worried very few of us. And some people being decidedly superior to others has always been a source of inspiration (see sports) rather than fear, at least for the cultures that continue to rule Earth in the TOS era.

The Augments of ENT offer more of the same: supermen out of their environment, struggling to regain a status in a world that no longer dances to their tune. An alternate viewpoint would have been of greater interest.

2. Much as with NOMAD, I guess the security detail is there for symbolic purposes, relying on the captive honoring his terms of captivity. As with NOMAD, that's all that's holding the captive back: the guns and the manpower are no obstacle to him breaking loose again.

I'm not sure whether Montalban and the director could have pulled off the choreography of Khan disarming a security force that pointed guns at him from a reasonably safe standoff distance. Yet that's what the superman ought to have been capable of doing, what with being credited with superiority in so many fields: speed, strength and the cunning to make those count.

Timo Saloniemi

Given that Hitler viewed his senior leaders as expendable, and given that he did not go into battle himself, perhaps a better analogy than eighty Napoleons would be eighty Hitlers ordering the movements of armies from a safe and cosseted distance away. As for the security team, three against one sounds like a job for a gymnast--or for Kirk, come to that.

 

[Timo]

Given that Hitler viewed his senior leaders as expendable, and given that he did not go into battle himself, perhaps a better analogy than eighty Napoleons would be eighty Hitlers ordering the movements of armies from a safe and cosseted distance away.

That's another interesting question: did Khan fight his own battles? Hitler had grand ideas, even though he also believed his micromanaging would be of assistance to his armies (the same was true of many Allied leaders, except perhaps for the "grand ideas" part). Khan might have been the exact opposite, laughing at weak people who followed "ideas" or practiced "policies", but factually being capable of superior micromanaging and direct leading of wars in Civilization style. Even more so than Napoleon, who was present at the battlefields largely because poor communications didn't allow him to lead from the rear.

ENT showed us unemployed Augments. When do we get to see supermen at work? Were they all generals? Klingon style or basic 20th century style? Were some field operatives - superior assassins, shock troops? Khan's performance in ST:ID would certainly allow for them making a difference in such roles! But we really need a fourth appearance besides TOS, ST2, ENT and ST:ID before we can really tell.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[LadyT'Anna]

ENT showed us unemployed Augments. When do we get to see supermen at work? Were they all generals? Klingon style or basic 20th century style? Were some field operatives - superior assassins, shock troops? Khan's performance in ST:ID would certainly allow for them making a difference in such roles! But we really need a fourth appearance besides TOS, ST2, ENT and ST:ID before we can really tell.

Interesting indeed. Maybe I'm being a strict constructionist here, but given that ENT was the prequel to TOS, and given that there were no Augments in TOS, I'm guessing that the Klingon High Council put the kibosh on them in the interim. I can't see the High Council sitting idly by as the entire Klingon society was being turned upside down by a few rowdy if powerful outliers. In short, I believe that the conspicuous absence of Augments in TOS settles the question.

 

[Marsden]

1. Do you feel the "Enterprise" eps enhance the re-viewing of Space Seed?

2. Near the end..the security detail for Khan. Three guys...with phasers drawn all within arms reach of Khan. The fuh? You guys are the worst security ever. Well, except for those who let a handful of Ferengai take the ship in that "Picard becomes a kid ep"

1. No.

2. I don't know. You have a good point, but it's hard to show all that needs to be shown on a 15" screen sometimes. I also think things were different in their attitudes. Khan did just get beaten in hand to hand combat by Kirk. That might have caused a change in his attitudes. I also think there would have been at least a second line of defense, as in guards at the corners not onscreen to react to anything that Khan tried. But I'm making that up myself, I have no onscreen evidence or what have you.

 

[Melakon]

The security guards at the hearing were for McGivers. There was the imminent danger that she would turn on her submissive act and defeat them, the way she turned Khan into a happily emasculated shadow of himself due to love.

 

[Terok Nor]

No. I don't remember those Enterprise episodes apart from the fact Brent Spiner appeared as Dr. Soong's ancestor and (I think) the Orions appeared. Similarly I don't remember much about the episodes where it was explained why the Klingons look human in the original series. Even if I did remember it wouldn't change my perception of previous episodes. Enterprise's canon has always seemed a bit questionable anyway.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

I also think things were different in their attitudes. Khan did just get beaten in hand to hand combat by Kirk. That might have caused a change in his attitudes. I also think there would have been at least a second line of defense, as in guards at the corners not onscreen to react to anything that Khan tried. But I'm making that up myself, I have no onscreen evidence or what have you.

If Khan is far stronger than other humans, why was Kirk able to defeat him in close combat? Is Kirk being, dare I say it, a Gary Stu?

 

[Redfern]

Well, it kinda' helped that Kirk went all "ghetto" on Khan, beating him silly and senseless with that, that...well, whatever the heck that "cylinder" was. Without it, Khan might have taken out Kirk...and I don't mean to dinner and a movie.

Sincerely,

Bill

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Well, it kinda' helped that Kirk went all "ghetto" on Khan, beating him silly and senseless with that, that...well, whatever the heck that "cylinder" was. Without it, Khan might have taken out Kirk...and I don't mean to dinner and a movie.

Sincerely,

Bill

Indeed! Although it does make one wonder why Khan apparently wasn't bred to have a diminished sense of pain along with (supposedly) heightened strength. That cylinder should have felt as light as paper to Khan, but it took him out instead--a most unpleasant first date, I'm sure.

 

[Marsden]

Well, it kinda' helped that Kirk went all "ghetto" on Khan, beating him silly and senseless with that, that...well, whatever the heck that "cylinder" was. Without it, Khan might have taken out Kirk...and I don't mean to dinner and a movie.

Sincerely,

Bill

You beat me to it, Bill.

KHAN: I have five times your strength. You're no match for me.

Kirk: But I've got this lead pipe and I'm not afraid to beat you with it.

I reminds me of Indy shooting the swordsman.

 

[A beaker full of death]

I don't know about Enterprise, but the last Abrams movie made me appreciate Khan's genetically programmed ability to morph from a Mexican Sikh (!!) into a pasty white guy.

 

[telerites]

Well, it kinda' helped that Kirk went all "ghetto" on Khan, beating him silly and senseless with that, that...well, whatever the heck that "cylinder" was. Without it, Khan might have taken out Kirk...and I don't mean to dinner and a movie.

Sincerely,

Bill

I always wondered what the purpose of those "tubes" were. Other than a billyclub, can anyone speculate an engineering purpose?

 

[PCz911]

No. Even if I did remember it wouldn't change my perception of previous episodes. Enterprise's canon has always seemed a bit questionable anyway.

Agree. "Canon" is subjective, but enterprise is not included in my 'personal' canon.

Tangent: The original cast movies....kind of (Star Trek v? Really?) tng... Never really watched it more than once. And the other spin offs, they are dead to me.

 

[Warped9]

1. Do you feel the "Enterprise" eps enhance the re-viewing of Space Seed?

No.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

I always wondered what the purpose of those "tubes" were. Other than a billyclub, can anyone speculate an engineering purpose?

Per Memory Alpha:

On Starfleet vessels, Jefferies tubes are internal maintenance conduits that are used to provide crew access to various ship's systems. In emergencies they're also used for moving around the ship if turbolifts are not functional. Doors within the Jefferies tubes can be sealed for safety or security reasons. It should be noted that on all ship displays of internal structure Jefferies tubes are not displayed, and in some cases show no sign where they could actually fit within the ship. During the 22nd and 23rd century, Jefferies tubes were usually referred to as access tubes, access tunnels or service chutes. It wasn't until the 24th century that their official name was firmly established, though some officers referred to them as "service crawl-ways" (TNG: "Disaster").

 

[scotpens]

Well, it kinda' helped that Kirk went all "ghetto" on Khan, beating him silly and senseless with that, that...well, whatever the heck that "cylinder" was. Without it, Khan might have taken out Kirk...and I don't mean to dinner and a movie.

Indeed! Although it does make one wonder why Khan apparently wasn't bred to have a diminished sense of pain along with (supposedly) heightened strength. That cylinder should have felt as light as paper to Khan, but it took him out instead--a most unpleasant first date, I'm sure.

Yes, Khan should have been capable of ignoring pain, ignoring weather, living off the land, eating things that'd make a billygoat puke!

Seriously, pain tolerance is irrelevant if you hit someone with sufficient force in a vulnerable spot. Khan was strong but he wasn't armor-plated.

Per Memory Alpha:

On Starfleet vessels, Jefferies tubes are internal maintenance conduits that are used to provide crew access to various ship's systems. In emergencies they're also used for moving around the ship if turbolifts are not functional. Doors within the Jefferies tubes can be sealed for safety or security reasons. It should be noted that on all ship displays of internal structure Jefferies tubes are not displayed, and in some cases show no sign where they could actually fit within the ship. During the 22nd and 23rd century, Jefferies tubes were usually referred to as access tubes, access tunnels or service chutes. It wasn't until the 24th century that their official name was firmly established, though some officers referred to them as "service crawl-ways" (TNG: "Disaster").

telerites wasn't referring to the Jefferies tubes. He meant the long cylinders attached to these handle-like thingies.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Kirk didn't have a penis-shaped stalagmite handy, so he had to make do with what was available.

 

[LadyT'Anna]

Thank you very kindly, scotpens; that's what I get for making assumptions. Whoops! (wipes egg--er, plomik soup off face )

TheOldMixer, that's too funny! It's a pity they didn't have a sample from that asteroid handy by, the one from "The Paradise Syndrome."