Counseller Troi's Promotion
- Thread starter otherjr
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Well, at least TNG didn't fall into the same problem that TOS movies did. Heck, by the time Star Trek VI rolled around, the Enterprise had 3 officers with the rank of Captain and at least 3 with the rank of full Commander!
Of course, in the real world, US Navy Aircraft Carriers have been known to have multiple officers with the rank of Captain (Commanding Officer, Chief Engineer, Air Group Commander, Chief Medical Officer and Exec) so there is a valid reason of sorts.
Of course, in the real world, US Navy Aircraft Carriers have been known to have multiple officers with the rank of Captain (Commanding Officer, Chief Engineer, Air Group Commander, Chief Medical Officer and Exec) so there is a valid reason of sorts.
...Then again, the Enterprise at that point was hardly comparable to an aircraft carrier in prestige or relative size. Back in TOS, similar ships had promoted UFP interests with just a single young Captain (or even Commander in "Where No Man"?) and a couple of Lieutenant Commanders in charge...
I could see the Excelsior packing a Commodore, three Captains and sixteen full Commanders, with a Vice Admiral spending a lot of time aboard to boot. Not the E-nil or the E-A, though.
Timo Saloniemi
I could see the Excelsior packing a Commodore, three Captains and sixteen full Commanders, with a Vice Admiral spending a lot of time aboard to boot. Not the E-nil or the E-A, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Do you mean Guinan? The one in Ten-forward? (Can't remember the actresses name, database error - File not found.
I think Guinan would make a great Commander, I got the impression she could be fairly ruthless if she needed to be but she hides her true nature.
I think I can think of a couple of times when Sisko has bent mission objectives to save lives. O'Brien is far more combat minded, re all those DS9 episodes where he's with Bashir (the incident with the Toolani, the incident with the Jem Hadar for example).
I seem to remember at the start of the episode, Dr. Crusher was on night bridge duty when the conversation between her and Troi took place. I got the impression therefore that one needed to have taken the test to be given command duty.
Troi should not have been promoted to command rank, the story was flawed.
1. The Starfleet command test parameters should change every time you take it otherwise its not a good test of an emergency situation where you have short amount of time to come to a command decision. You shouldn't be able to pause it and go and have a think or a panic attack and come back and resume.
2. The Starfleet command test should come on the applicant unawares like the personality test Wesley took on the starbase for Starfleet Academy entrance.
3. The show did not really need to have another command officer, it didn't advance the plot any or make a real difference to Troi's character in the long run.
4. Character development does not need to be a success for the character (but I think the writers only realised this later with Wesleys leaving of Starfleet). I think Trois realisation that she was not cut out for the role would have led to a more deeper self-knowledge for the character.
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I kind of like your version, SpyOne.
Whoopi Goldberg.
I agree that she would've made a good commander. But I don't think she would've wanted to be one.
That's always been my suspicion.
IMO, the character was poorly conceived and poorly executed from the get-go. If Sirtis had any ambitions at all as an actor, I can't imagine she wouldn't have come to feel profound frustration with the character.
It's simple. They didn't know what to do with Siritis's character and tried to drop the counselor thing and integrate her into the staff. Unfortunately, she had already been established as counselor and well it was too late to change her into anything else.
Marina had to be frustrated. I know I would've been. I would've quit the show.
Marina had to be frustrated. I know I would've been. I would've quit the show.
did Deanna ever attend the Academy, or is her rank an honourary one?
I don't think she'd ever make a good command officer, she hasn't got the personality for it. Picard inspires confidence since the crew respect his wisdom and intellect. Riker makes a good captain since he can think quickly and is confident in his decision making. Even Worf (well he got more command time in DS9 then TNG), or Data and Geordi showed they could competently command.
Deanna simply doesn't have a leader's character.
I don't think she'd ever make a good command officer, she hasn't got the personality for it. Picard inspires confidence since the crew respect his wisdom and intellect. Riker makes a good captain since he can think quickly and is confident in his decision making. Even Worf (well he got more command time in DS9 then TNG), or Data and Geordi showed they could competently command.
Deanna simply doesn't have a leader's character.
As a woman, I thought Counselor Troi's promotion was sort of a cop-out at this point. For years she played the scantily-clad, overrated "counselor" whose abilities come from pop psychology and innately being ever-so-slightly telepathic. I hated how she had to be that one character who explains and paraphrases plot turns for the audience. And, her clothes weren't even cute. That early elf-cocktail waitress getup was cute for awhile but you can only take that so far into the 90s and not get propositioned every time you cross the street.
That said, I think the promotion could have worked really well if they built off Disaster or Face of the Enemy.
That said, I think the promotion could have worked really well if they built off Disaster or Face of the Enemy.
I adore Troi's character because she's not so cocksure in her job as most other crews across all series. But she brings a unique set of skills with her Boobazoid heritage. She was grossly badly written and under developed. The writers sucked big time. What drove Deanna to serve on a spaceship? She should have been a stronger personality from the beginning- like we see in face of the enemy and disaster.
I find it infuriating that someone would write her character into the bunny suit and make her thick as pig shit. She doesn't get the basics of an anti matter explosion in 100110101 or whatever it's called. LMAO. She holds a rank!!- so she must have graduated the academy. Did she skip the antimatter containment class? Did she never walk past a warp core before and ask what it does? No one who chose to go into space would be that ignorant of their surroundings if they really had managed to pass the academy exams. The only way to explain the writers' lack of talent in fleshing out a woman counsellor who also holds a high rank is that Troi fucked her way to graduation and then from Captain to Captain. Or... she actually hafd least a basic knowledge of a ships functions- and on all the days she had no idea what was happening to the ship she was having a severe migraine.
Seriously I think it's absurd that Picard or any captain would allow someone of such responsibilty and high rank to have such a prominent station on the ship if they couldn't understand a loss of anti-matter containment and equal technologies vital to ships running. Its too easy to say that all you see on screen is cannon. The character seems contradictory throughout the series.
Does rank automatically give you position of authority regardless of whether you have the necessary skills? Miles O'Brien graduated the Academy and he had no rank as a non commissioned officer. Mr Scott was once referred to as Captain of Engineering over seeing the excelsior project. It's absurd that Troi would be a Lt.Commander without knowing a lot of stuff about starship workings.
The thing with Thine Own Self that made the promotion seem wrong was that out of one episode Troi learned all there is to know about the ship without supposedly having an understanding before. If this had been introduced over a few episodes it was seem much more plausible. Basically the writers promoted Troi so she could fly the ship in Generations. And then crash it- women drivers grrrr
I find it infuriating that someone would write her character into the bunny suit and make her thick as pig shit. She doesn't get the basics of an anti matter explosion in 100110101 or whatever it's called. LMAO. She holds a rank!!- so she must have graduated the academy. Did she skip the antimatter containment class? Did she never walk past a warp core before and ask what it does? No one who chose to go into space would be that ignorant of their surroundings if they really had managed to pass the academy exams. The only way to explain the writers' lack of talent in fleshing out a woman counsellor who also holds a high rank is that Troi fucked her way to graduation and then from Captain to Captain. Or... she actually hafd least a basic knowledge of a ships functions- and on all the days she had no idea what was happening to the ship she was having a severe migraine.
Seriously I think it's absurd that Picard or any captain would allow someone of such responsibilty and high rank to have such a prominent station on the ship if they couldn't understand a loss of anti-matter containment and equal technologies vital to ships running. Its too easy to say that all you see on screen is cannon. The character seems contradictory throughout the series.
Does rank automatically give you position of authority regardless of whether you have the necessary skills? Miles O'Brien graduated the Academy and he had no rank as a non commissioned officer. Mr Scott was once referred to as Captain of Engineering over seeing the excelsior project. It's absurd that Troi would be a Lt.Commander without knowing a lot of stuff about starship workings.
The thing with Thine Own Self that made the promotion seem wrong was that out of one episode Troi learned all there is to know about the ship without supposedly having an understanding before. If this had been introduced over a few episodes it was seem much more plausible. Basically the writers promoted Troi so she could fly the ship in Generations. And then crash it- women drivers grrrr
I doubt her rank has anything to do with her knowledge of starship operations. Her job as counselor doesnt require her to know anything about the ship nor does her rank. McCoy was Commander and later an Admiral and proably knew next to nothing about the engines or piloting the ship. Any promotions received would be based on his experience and performance in his department. Same for Troi.
I know this ep sets up the conditions for Troi to become a full commander in an effort to further develop her character. Frankly, I would've preferred to substitute Data in Troi's place and jettison the planet story, which I always thought was rather lacking. Data ordering Geordi to his death, even in simulation, would've been more emotionally powerful owing to their long, close friendship.
It also seems the command test is designed for officers who aren't on the command or even operations tracks, as those areas seem more suited for promotions to higher authority.
As far as we know, Riker never had to take such a test, as he was promoted to full commander on the merits of his service as a second officer, then first officer on the Hood, trained in the command track. It seems Riker was a lt. cmdr. when Picard recruited him to be his number one, per dialogue in Best of Both Worlds, Pt. I.
Also, we see Shelby promoted from lt. cmdr. to full commander in Best of Both Worlds, Pt. II, without having to take the test.
Still, I have a soft place in my heart for Troi, and it was one of the few eps that focused on her, so I congratulate the writers for trying to do something different with Troi.
BTW, there's a reason why in most of the ST shows, there's only one person of captain rank in the show. It would confuse most ordinary folks if you had, say, Riker and Dr. Crusher at the rank of captain, as most folks don't know about the difference between the rank and position. The TOS movies were an anomaly regarding ranks, of course, even though it was closer to how ranks are on a real-world naval ship like an aircraft carrier.
It also seems the command test is designed for officers who aren't on the command or even operations tracks, as those areas seem more suited for promotions to higher authority.
As far as we know, Riker never had to take such a test, as he was promoted to full commander on the merits of his service as a second officer, then first officer on the Hood, trained in the command track. It seems Riker was a lt. cmdr. when Picard recruited him to be his number one, per dialogue in Best of Both Worlds, Pt. I.
Also, we see Shelby promoted from lt. cmdr. to full commander in Best of Both Worlds, Pt. II, without having to take the test.
Still, I have a soft place in my heart for Troi, and it was one of the few eps that focused on her, so I congratulate the writers for trying to do something different with Troi.
BTW, there's a reason why in most of the ST shows, there's only one person of captain rank in the show. It would confuse most ordinary folks if you had, say, Riker and Dr. Crusher at the rank of captain, as most folks don't know about the difference between the rank and position. The TOS movies were an anomaly regarding ranks, of course, even though it was closer to how ranks are on a real-world naval ship like an aircraft carrier.
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It's worse than that: I read an interview with one of the writers (probably in Star Trek:The Magazine) where he said that among the writers, Troi was known as The Destroyer of Plots for her character's ability to destroy their ideas: they had to explain why she wasn't there, or flummox her empathic powers, or do something to explain why she didn't immediately "sense" what needed to be kept secret from the crew for the story to work.
So, when she's there she mostly gets to "sense" the painfully obvious, and when her powers would actually be useful she's busy somewhere else. It is amazing they kept her for all seven years.
Back to the main topic:
There is (or was) something that may have influenced the writers about the Bridge Officers' Test. Up until 2005, officers in the US Military came in 2 flavors: "Regular" and "Reserve". Reserve in this context had nothing to do with the branch reserves (Army Reserve, Navy Reserve), which are programs similar to the National Guard that maintain trained personnel should the service in question need to expand: both Reserve and Guard units got "called up" for the war on terror, for example.
All officers started as Reserve officers (although there had been a tradition of graduates of the Service Academies automatically becoming Regular Officers). When one came up for promotion to O-4 (which would be Lieutenant Commander in Starfleet), you also took a test to see if you could become a Regular Officer.
Reserve Officers must retire after 20 years, but Regular Officers can stay longer (28 years if O-5, 30 if O-6). Regular Officers cannot be fired just because the military has too many people at a given rank. Because they are going to be around longer, Regular Officers are more likely to receive additional training.
I have heard from some sources that a Reserve Officer is unlikely to advance above O-4 (promotion to O-4 coming around 10 years of service, and O-5 around 6 years later.
So my theory is: Starfleet has something similar, say "Bridge" officers and "Service" officers. People who took the right classes at the Academy might enter as a Bridge Officer, but others enter as a Service Officer. A Service Officer is unlikely to rise above Lieutenant Commander (O-5), but may take the Bridge Officer Exam to have their status changed. Effectively, Service Officers will never get a command.
Perhaps Troi had taken (and failed) the test when she made Lieutenant Commander, and wanted to take it again because when she took it the first time, she hadn't actually cared if she passed or not.
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