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Could the War chief be the Master? Plus The War Games (spoiler)

Starkers

Admiral
Premium Member
Ok, I'll be honest. My thinking that the War Chief was the Master made a lot more sense before they killed in in episode 9...but still...

He's a Timelord. He has a lust of power and wants to rule the universe. He appears to know the Doctor (although he's never met the second Doctor before) and the clincher? Sinister facial hair!

As for the death bit...well how many times have we seen the Master killed over the years? It's hardly a stretch to imagine that he wasn't actually killed (in fact its the kind of slippery trick you'd expect from the Master, especially if he contrived his own 'death' so as to conviniently be out of the way before the Timelords showed up?)

Have I gone fanwankery mad or has anyone else ever thought the same? Maybe I just like the notion that Harold MEaker from Rentaghost was the Master...

As for the War Games itself. Well clearly its way, way too long. Even as someone who thinks 45 minutes is often too short 250 odd minutes if far too long, and too often the Doctor and co are captured then recaptured, then recaptured again.

Aside from that though I loved it. The War Chief and the War Lord were great villains (shame about the Security Cheif, seriously why. did. he. have. to. talk. like. that?) The notion of soldiers being scooped up from different timezones to fight and die just to provide aliens with an army to conquer the universe.

This must have been a hell of a story to watch back in the day, the timelords do come across as quite a scary force (somewhat diluted when they finally show up, and with the ease with which the aliens invade Gallifray at the end, even if they don't get far) and Toughton's fear at the thought of them is rewally well done. A very bittersweet ending as well, with Jamie and Zoe returned to their own times with little memory of the Doctor. I'm kinda sad myself now, this was the last complete Troughton I'd never seen :(
 
The War Chief was expanded on in books. One of the Deca at the Prydonian Acamdemy (along with Rani, Master, Monk, Doctor). In one of the new adventures, he undergoes a botched regeneration that makes him deformed and works for Hitler or something.

As to the episode itself, I think it's great. It may be very long (but then it was a serial, so watching it all in one does it no favours), but it's brimming with tension throughout.
 
Oh yeah agree about the tension, first off as Troughton comes to realise that there's a Timelord at work behind the war games, then when he realises he has to call in the Time Lords in order to get everyone home.

Even watching it one or two episodes at a time over the last week though it's felt too long though.
 
Sorry to be a killjoy, but the real world knowledge that the Master wasn't even thought of until Barry Letts & Terrance Dicks, in comparing the behaviour & relational dynamics between the Pertwee Doctor & the Brig to that of Holmes & Watson, suddenly realised they needed a Moriarty - some time after season seven began - kills the idea for me :|
 
Sorry to be a killjoy, but the real world knowledge that the Master wasn't even thought of until Barry Letts & Terrance Dicks, in comparing the behaviour & relational dynamics between the Pertwee Doctor & the Brig to that of Holmes & Watson, suddenly realised they needed a Moriarty - some time after season seven began - kills the idea for me :|

Yeah, but with that need they remembered the War Chief and figured they could view him as a sort of prototype, and create a Mk II as it were...

It would be cool to have them be the same character, but, c'est la vie. (And in the books, Terrance Dicks brought the War Chief back early on, having survived as himself, while the Master gets a separate origin in The Dark Path. Wot I wrote, so I should know...)
 
Ok, I'll be honest. My thinking that the War Chief was the Master made a lot more sense before they killed in in episode 9...but still...

He's a Timelord. He has a lust of power and wants to rule the universe. He appears to know the Doctor (although he's never met the second Doctor before) and the clincher? Sinister facial hair!

As for the death bit...well how many times have we seen the Master killed over the years? It's hardly a stretch to imagine that he wasn't actually killed (in fact its the kind of slippery trick you'd expect from the Master, especially if he contrived his own 'death' so as to conviniently be out of the way before the Timelords showed up?)

Have I gone fanwankery mad or has anyone else ever thought the same? Maybe I just like the notion that Harold MEaker from Rentaghost was the Master...
I go back and forth on this suggestion (sorry, you're not the first to come up with it ;)), and while the idea certainly has its appeal, it also has the problem of trying to tie in too much with itself (a problem I feel the Star Trek novels have fallen into in recent years, but that's for another thread). Of course, the biggest problem with this theory is doesn't The Doctor call The War Chief (after meeting him face to face) The Master? When The Doctor is told by a fellow Time Lord in Terror of the Autons that The Master has been exiled on Earth, The Doctor knows who he is by that name right away.

As for the War Games itself. Well clearly its way, way too long. Even as someone who thinks 45 minutes is often too short 250 odd minutes if far too long, and too often the Doctor and co are captured then recaptured, then recaptured again.
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I don't think The War Games is long at all. Yes, there's a lot of classic capture and recapture moments throughout the story, but what really appeals to me about the story in regards to the length is how the onion is peeled back, slowly revealing what's truly going on. We don't even meet The War Lord until episode 7! Some would call that tedious but I think it's brilliant. The appearance of the Time Lords at the end is merely icing on the cake.

This must have been a hell of a story to watch back in the day, the timelords do come across as quite a scary force (somewhat diluted when they finally show up, and with the ease with which the aliens invade Gallifray at the end, even if they don't get far) and Toughton's fear at the thought of them is rewally well done.
I like to think the Time Lords knew they were coming and let them in so the Time Lords could punish them.

A very bittersweet ending as well, with Jamie and Zoe returned to their own times with little memory of the Doctor. I'm kinda sad myself now, this was the last complete Troughton I'd never seen :(
I both love and hate the bittersweet ending. So many people cry about Donna's bittersweet ending (myself included) but I think Jamie and Zoe's ending is more effective because it was so simple and happened so suddenly.

I'm kinda sad myself now, this was the last complete Troughton I'd never seen :(
This depresses me all the time. I keep hoping Power of the Daleks, The Faceless Ones, The Abominable Snowmen, or The Web of Fear will be found in completion...
 
Sorry to be a killjoy, but the real world knowledge that the Master wasn't even thought of until Barry Letts & Terrance Dicks, in comparing the behaviour & relational dynamics between the Pertwee Doctor & the Brig to that of Holmes & Watson, suddenly realised they needed a Moriarty - some time after season seven began - kills the idea for me :|

Yeah, but with that need they remembered the War Chief and figured they could view him as a sort of prototype, and create a Mk II as it were...

It would be cool to have them be the same character, but, c'est la vie. (And in the books, Terrance Dicks brought the War Chief back early on, having survived as himself, while the Master gets a separate origin in The Dark Path. Wot I wrote, so I should know...)

shame he just looks and acts so like the Master. Was he ever given any other name than the War Chief? Which is cool but clearly only the title the War Lord gave him.
 
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I don't think The War Games is long at all. Yes, there's a lot of classic capture and recapture moments throughout the story, but what really appeals to me about the story in regards to the length is how the onion is peeled back, slowly revealing what's truly going on. We don't even meet The War Lord until episode 7! Some would call that tedious but I think it's brilliant. The appearance of the Time Lords at the end is merely icing on the cake.


I like to think the Time Lords knew they were coming and let them in so the Time Lords could punish them.

Well that makes sense. I know what you mean about the story, but you could quiet easily lose a few episodes and quite a lot of scenes. (reusing the footage of the same Romans from earlier for example!)
 
Sorry to be a killjoy, but the real world knowledge that the Master wasn't even thought of until Barry Letts & Terrance Dicks, in comparing the behaviour & relational dynamics between the Pertwee Doctor & the Brig to that of Holmes & Watson, suddenly realised they needed a Moriarty - some time after season seven began - kills the idea for me :|

Why would it kill the idea for you? It's called "retconning" and Doctor Who's done it. The Second Doctor was originally just the same character "rejuvinated"...the implication is that physically, he's been rebooted to an early phase in the aging process.

Ditto for when Two changes to Three....it's very clear in The War Games that the Time Lords are powerful beings who can change someone's appearance....and that's all that happens.

When Four comes along, they come up with the concept of "regeneration" and at some point the first two changes are retconned into being "regenerations" instead of what they clearly are.

The War Chief is no different. Even I felt like it could be the Master when I watched it not long ago.
 
As far as I am concerned, until something ON SCREEN concretely contradicts the idea, the War Chief and the Master are one and the same.
 
as far as i'm concerned until something ON SCREEN concretely contradicts the idea, the War Chief and the Master are not the same.

i agree, it is a tad long, and maybe could've been triimmed, but it is still a great story.
 
As far as I am concerned, until something ON SCREEN concretely contradicts the idea, the War Chief and the Master are one and the same.

Terror of the Autons when the Time Lord agent visits the Doctor to give him the heads up that the Master is on the loose. I take that as definitive proof that the characters are not the same as a) he is not referred to as a the War Chief, b) no reference is made to his involvement in the events that led to the Doctor's exile, c) when the Doctor subsequently encounters the Master no reference to The War Games is made. Additional proof is offered by the fact that The Five Doctors establishes the Doctor knew the Master at the academy (even if Hurndall's Doctor didn't recognize him for some reason) while The End of Time established they knew each other as youths. Yet no reference to any previous acquaintance of this nature is offered in The War Games (even when Delgado's Master was introduced there was always a bit of undercurrent suggesting they knew each other previously).

Add to that the fact the novels have provided differing backstories, which can't be completely discounted as the BBC has established "open canon" in Doctor Who (as opposed to Trek which, per Paramount and Roddenberry, has "closed canon" restricted to live-action film and TV), therefore rendering virtually everything officially licensed by the BBC as canon (even with contradictions), and it's a pretty open and shut case that you can't even retcon the Master into the War Chief. Unlike how the (non-canon) Star Trek novels retconned Trelane to be a Q.

Alex
 
Well just because the Second Doctor didn't call him Master, doesn't mean he isn't. After all Ten didn't want to use his name until Simm insisted :D

And the War Chief does know the Doctor. 'Even though you've changed your appearance I know who you are.' That seems pretty clear to me that he's met the Doctor before.

I realise it's a trifle silly to retcon a character into the Master when the Master as a character didn't exist yet, but I just think it would fit. Shame they didn't just make him the same character at the time.
 
Plus The War Games (spoiler)

40 years since the original broadcast and probably 80-90% of the original actors dead and buried now and you're worried about spoiling it for Dr Who fans in a Dr Who forum.. :guffaw:
I'd be surprised if even half the people here have seen it.

Regardless, I think nobody should expect a tv episode or movie more than a few years old to remain unspoiled for them. It's like expecting to be kept in the dark about what Soylent Green is if you haven't seen the movie yet.
 
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