I'm talking about a security system with permissions, etc. No special AI would be required beyond what the computer already has.
Could Janeway have promoted herself?
- Thread starter Guy Gardener
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Which would be controlled by the security chief directly and Janeway peripherally, and if Janeway didn't have control of permissions for the day to day running of her own ship then it's hardly her ship.
Though I do recall the computer locking everyone out in the Omega directive, but Janeway fixed that about 5 minutes later and suddenly everyone had captain-level access to the Omega Directives including the borgette who doesn't even have rank.
Though I do recall the computer locking everyone out in the Omega directive, but Janeway fixed that about 5 minutes later and suddenly everyone had captain-level access to the Omega Directives including the borgette who doesn't even have rank.
How does the chain of command promotion system operate in the real world? Can anyone arbitrarily change that on a whim or does the authority of the military take precedence regardless of what some Captain says?
Maybe knowing what Starfleet themselves decree to be correct procedure is a part of the computer's Operating System or something.
Unless you work for the Federation's equivalent of Apple, then you're probably not going to be able to reprogram the OS of the computer on board the ship the military have given you to command.
Promotion protocols don't really count as day-to-day running of the ship.
Maybe knowing what Starfleet themselves decree to be correct procedure is a part of the computer's Operating System or something.
Unless you work for the Federation's equivalent of Apple, then you're probably not going to be able to reprogram the OS of the computer on board the ship the military have given you to command.
Promotion protocols don't really count as day-to-day running of the ship.
Have you seen TNG lower Decks or TNG tapestry?
The XO is in charge of the crew. And s/he consorts with the counselor for her/his opinion on how the crew is doing and where they deserve to be going. I assume the Captain has to sign off on everything and has the right to veto anything s/he doesn't agree with. From some of the dialog in Lower Decks it would seem that promotions are a seasonal thing unless you do something superspecial that demands commendation or there's an empty slot because someone died (Worf taking over from Tasha and Data.). Meanwhile in tapestry Picard was begging for promotion and begging for assignments in other areas which would lead to promotion and command from again the counselor and XO who talked like they were quite familiar with his evaluations and promotion prospects...
We actually got to see most of the decision making process on screen with Chakotay and Janeway hammering on about whether Torress or Carey should be in charge of Engineering and even to some effect about how their meritocracy mirrored affirmative action that trained qualified officers were pushed down to jobs they were over qualified for so that the raggity malcontent terrorists wouldn't mutiny and chuck Voyagers real crewmen out an airlock...
Hey, that's Tuvoks thinking, not mine. can you imagine how little he thought of these Maquis after living with them for some time that he still wrote that training program in Worst case scenario? Maybe he was bunk mates with Suder?
besides Janeways speech tot he caretaker about giving the Ocampa the opportunity to look after themselves is pretty ballsy if Janeway herself had a caretaker program on her ship that was limiting her authority and second guessing her decisions... Kirk thought what was going on in the Apple was just about as silly... And honestly if they were completely beholden to a computer program wouldn't that have already made Janeway Borg?
The XO is in charge of the crew. And s/he consorts with the counselor for her/his opinion on how the crew is doing and where they deserve to be going. I assume the Captain has to sign off on everything and has the right to veto anything s/he doesn't agree with. From some of the dialog in Lower Decks it would seem that promotions are a seasonal thing unless you do something superspecial that demands commendation or there's an empty slot because someone died (Worf taking over from Tasha and Data.). Meanwhile in tapestry Picard was begging for promotion and begging for assignments in other areas which would lead to promotion and command from again the counselor and XO who talked like they were quite familiar with his evaluations and promotion prospects...
We actually got to see most of the decision making process on screen with Chakotay and Janeway hammering on about whether Torress or Carey should be in charge of Engineering and even to some effect about how their meritocracy mirrored affirmative action that trained qualified officers were pushed down to jobs they were over qualified for so that the raggity malcontent terrorists wouldn't mutiny and chuck Voyagers real crewmen out an airlock...
Hey, that's Tuvoks thinking, not mine. can you imagine how little he thought of these Maquis after living with them for some time that he still wrote that training program in Worst case scenario? Maybe he was bunk mates with Suder?
besides Janeways speech tot he caretaker about giving the Ocampa the opportunity to look after themselves is pretty ballsy if Janeway herself had a caretaker program on her ship that was limiting her authority and second guessing her decisions... Kirk thought what was going on in the Apple was just about as silly... And honestly if they were completely beholden to a computer program wouldn't that have already made Janeway Borg?
The failure of an implementation of a technology in its earliest stages is, after all, reason to stop exploring and using that technology forever after. That's the sort of thing which saved humanity from the peril of Bessemer-process steel, for example.
Zero Tolerance has it's drawbacks, but it's how they handled their issues with Eugenics... if you don't count those kids Polaski made in some test tube back in the day who came to a boil back in season two TNG whose immune systems went insane and started killing people. And honestly how is a visit to Talos IV not a day indulging yourself in a Holodeck?
And warp technology practically had to be reinvented to avoid damage to subspace, although considering the erosive effects are all too similar to exploding Omega on smaller slower time scale, you would have to wonder why Starfleet isn't forcing other civilizations to upgrade or alternatively confining them to their home systems until they figure out how to warp space safely... In line with Janeway handing out the Malon recycling technology which would have made their space warping technology infinitively less destructive on huge tracts of even real space.
of course forcing a culture to be ecologically responsible against it's own intersts is why Tom got demoted and stuck in the brig for thirty days.
And warp technology practically had to be reinvented to avoid damage to subspace, although considering the erosive effects are all too similar to exploding Omega on smaller slower time scale, you would have to wonder why Starfleet isn't forcing other civilizations to upgrade or alternatively confining them to their home systems until they figure out how to warp space safely... In line with Janeway handing out the Malon recycling technology which would have made their space warping technology infinitively less destructive on huge tracts of even real space.
of course forcing a culture to be ecologically responsible against it's own intersts is why Tom got demoted and stuck in the brig for thirty days.
What does this have to do with Janeway being able to promote other people to the rank of Starfleet Captain or herself to the rank of Admiral?
You said
I don't think a computer decided to strip paris or the Equinox 5 of rank either? Was Suder stripped of rank? And did he get it back posthumously after saving the ship? Actually on retirement, from what I've read, most people get a small grade bump to help with the pension if nothing else.
And if a lone Borg, Kullah's bunch and the Hirogen (For over a month!!!) can take over Voyager and careen about the DQ willy nilly, then I'm fairly certian the computer does what it's told if you can convince it that you are in charge... Have you seen DS9 Civil Defense? And really janeways crew was doing nothing but taking their ship apart and putting it back together again exactly to their own personal settings over and over again after every time they got fragged and pwned that they didn't want to get fooled twice again surely.
Hell? Wasn't there an episode were Icheb stole/used B'Elannas personal command code? The Computer just went along with as if B'Elanna hands out her codes to everyone, or it's quite thick.
That is the correct procedure for Starfleet as we have seen on the show for how promotions are handed out, I'm not adequately familiar with the real military, but despite what ever rules and guidelines are in place by starfleet, the awarding of promotion seems to be a completely human process. Every instance of promotion that we have seen, including some that I have mentioned above have had noting to do with an egg timing computer deciding that someone has done a good enough job for long enough to be entitled with a grade bump.
I don't think a computer decided to strip paris or the Equinox 5 of rank either? Was Suder stripped of rank? And did he get it back posthumously after saving the ship? Actually on retirement, from what I've read, most people get a small grade bump to help with the pension if nothing else.
And if a lone Borg, Kullah's bunch and the Hirogen (For over a month!!!) can take over Voyager and careen about the DQ willy nilly, then I'm fairly certian the computer does what it's told if you can convince it that you are in charge... Have you seen DS9 Civil Defense? And really janeways crew was doing nothing but taking their ship apart and putting it back together again exactly to their own personal settings over and over again after every time they got fragged and pwned that they didn't want to get fooled twice again surely.
Hell? Wasn't there an episode were Icheb stole/used B'Elannas personal command code? The Computer just went along with as if B'Elanna hands out her codes to everyone, or it's quite thick.
*sigh*
Would it be correct procedure for a Captain to promote anyone else to the rank of Captain or to promote themselves to the rank of Admiral?
That's what this thread is about, after all. For some reason you seem to be arguing that Janeway could, without actually saying it.
Would it be correct procedure for a Captain to promote anyone else to the rank of Captain or to promote themselves to the rank of Admiral?
That's what this thread is about, after all. For some reason you seem to be arguing that Janeway could, without actually saying it.
Having served in the military, I can say this : No. You cannot promote yourself no matter the rank. Also, there is a difference between rank and position. I.e. - Rank of captain and Captain of a vessel. I really don't want to go into that right now. Just know that Janeway definitely had no authority whatsoever to promote herself or give any promotion that would raise anyone to a rank that equaled or surpassed her own.
You might recall I started this thread BQ, so I'm more than aware what I wanted it to be about. Whatever happens after that is what makes questions interesting.
DS9 The Valliant, A cadet was promoted to Captain by a real Captains dying breath. VOY Resolutions, Kathy promotes Tuvok to captain since she's off to play with her monkey. VOY Before and After, either Kathy promoted Chakotay with her dying breath, or he promoted himself to Captain after she died. i don't think Rachel garret or Picard promoted anyone before sending the Enterprise C into the time Rift in Yesterdays Enterprise, but it would have bared consideration considering they were all about to die or be erased from time.
Given her unusual situation, it would still take some balls fro kathy to promote herself in my estimation of the lady, and hells Ransom was in the same position that thinking he was the sole representative of Star fleet within 70 thousand light years he could have promoted himself and then Kathryn could have been beholden to him rather than talking about the tactical superiority of their ships. It would take some balls, but I'm 99 percent sure than a Captain in contact with Starfleet near enough Federation Space would not be able to do so, even if there is a case of a captain once promoting himself to Lord and Master of the Universe.
She wouldn't be allowed to promote herself by her superiors who are too far away to have an impact on her decision making process, however the Starfleet Charter might just call her out, which is merely a matter of honor and tradition and holding up the bylaws and fair play of the institution rather than making up amendments to justify impossible moral quagmires.
Kathryn should be able to stop herself from being megalomaniacal because she's a good person not because there's default programing in the computer to take her out if she crosses some line. Using a computer to back her up just in case she turns out to be a bad apple really means that she shouldn't have been made a Captain in the first place and the the psych test which fracked up Wes and Worf was too piss easy for Kathy to fake out... Just like Captain Tracy or Captain Ransom.
DS9 The Valliant, A cadet was promoted to Captain by a real Captains dying breath. VOY Resolutions, Kathy promotes Tuvok to captain since she's off to play with her monkey. VOY Before and After, either Kathy promoted Chakotay with her dying breath, or he promoted himself to Captain after she died. i don't think Rachel garret or Picard promoted anyone before sending the Enterprise C into the time Rift in Yesterdays Enterprise, but it would have bared consideration considering they were all about to die or be erased from time.
Given her unusual situation, it would still take some balls fro kathy to promote herself in my estimation of the lady, and hells Ransom was in the same position that thinking he was the sole representative of Star fleet within 70 thousand light years he could have promoted himself and then Kathryn could have been beholden to him rather than talking about the tactical superiority of their ships. It would take some balls, but I'm 99 percent sure than a Captain in contact with Starfleet near enough Federation Space would not be able to do so, even if there is a case of a captain once promoting himself to Lord and Master of the Universe.
She wouldn't be allowed to promote herself by her superiors who are too far away to have an impact on her decision making process, however the Starfleet Charter might just call her out, which is merely a matter of honor and tradition and holding up the bylaws and fair play of the institution rather than making up amendments to justify impossible moral quagmires.
Kathryn should be able to stop herself from being megalomaniacal because she's a good person not because there's default programing in the computer to take her out if she crosses some line. Using a computer to back her up just in case she turns out to be a bad apple really means that she shouldn't have been made a Captain in the first place and the the psych test which fracked up Wes and Worf was too piss easy for Kathy to fake out... Just like Captain Tracy or Captain Ransom.
The enlisted would be promoted by their department head with Janeway's signature as approval. Most enlisted promotions i.e. junior enlisted would be automatic depending on time in grade. Senior enlisted i.e. the nco's would be promoted based on performance rating. Junior officers could be suggested for promotion by their direct superior based on both time in grade and performance, then of course it would be up to Janeway whether or not they were promoted. Senior officers, i.e. bridge crew would be directly supervised by the Captain. Their promotion is of course up to the captain as well. Someone with the rank of Captain would also have the authority to promote an enlisted person to an officer, giving them a battlefield commission, given their actions granted one. The highest rank Janeway could promote someone to is Commander, one rank below her own. The highest position Janeway could promote someone to is to hand over captaincy of "Voyager" to them in the event that she could no longer perform her duties as Captain of the Vessel. The same as she did with Tuvok in the episode "Resolutions". (Someone check that episode for me and make sure I have the right episode title please )
Resolutions is correct.
What sort of hand over was involved when Janeway comaed out possibly forever in Scorpion?
What sort of hand over was involved when Janeway comaed out possibly forever in Scorpion?
em, yeah he was. He gets a field promotion - he's made Captain - it's clear and explicit on the screen. He was OFFICIALLY the Captain. As Timo points out, he could Captain the ship as Commander, the promotion is irrelevant to that issue.
"Commander Riker, I hereby promote you to the field commission of Captain, the enterprise is your ship now. I wish the circumstances were different".
The reason he's not still a Captain at the start of the next season is because of the real world politics of the show - nothing to do with any internal reality. The whole arc of the character is him stepping into the big chair, that's why he's fundamentally busted from that point on.
That would be Chakotay assuming the position of Acting Captain. The highest ranking officer and top of the chain of command, Janeway, was unable to perform her duties as ship's Captain, so the responsibility of the position as ship's Captain fell to Chakotay because he was the second in the chain of command. His rank was not affected, only his position. Since Janeway was still alive and only temporalily unfit for duty, he was Acting Captain only. If Janeway had died, he would have become the official Captian of the vessel, still holding the rank of Commander since their would be no one with the authority to promote him to captain, else they would likely assume command of the ship.
I should also mention that whenever the Captain leaves the bridge and says, for example, 'Mr. Paris, you have the bridge." she is not handing over position, but only authority. She is assigning him overwatch of the bridge because there has to be a ranking officer in control of the bridge. He then has the ability to give reasonable and lawful orders pertaining to the mission under the Captain's authority. In that case, the Captain is still in command of the ship and anyone above Paris in the chain of command could take the bridge if he is not up to the task. He is not 'Acting' anything in that instance, he is merely the senior officer on deck. Which is why when the Captain returns, he sits down and shuts up again.
Let me do a little explaining of how rank works in the military today for those who are unfamiliar. This is not to treat anyone like an idiot, it's simply for those who don't already understand and are interested to learn. I feel it's important because Starfleet rank is based on U.S. Navy rank. All branches of the military have similar rank systems but use different terminology.
No matter the branch, there are two types of soldiers, just as there are two types of starfleet persons, enlisted and officers. All enlisted ranks correspond to a paygrade denoted by the terms E-1 through E-9. Between enlisted and officer is what is referred to as Warrent Officers, W-1 through W-5. The higest ranks are the officer ranks, O-1 through O-10.
When you join the military, you have the possiblility of enlisting, joining as an elisted person, or becoming an officer, or earning a commission. Enlisted personel are required to pass an entrance exam, medical exam and then graduate from basic training which is number of weeks depending on the branch and chosen career field as well as completing career training, the length of which depends on the chosen career. Most types of enlisted soldiers graduate from training within a couple of months. Enlisted promotion up to a certain point depend on time in grade, where you are simply promoted based solely on how long you've held your particular rank granted your service is still in good standing. Those ranks are usualy E-1 to E-4. E-5's to E-9's are referred to as Nco's. Non commissioned officers. Their promotions are based on performance and completion of several week Nco school according to their rank.
Warrent officer rank is most generally given to Nco's who have earned a four year degree and shown a profiency in their career as an enlisted person. They are given the same respect as an officer would recieve and work directly with the enlisted personel. They usually hold a position as head of a department the same as an officer would and have the same responsiblilites and authority, sometimes more authority and responsiblity than a respective commisioned officer. A good example of this would be chief O' Brien. He is an elisted man that has proved his proficiency in his chosen career, moved through the entire elisted rank structure and has been given the same duties and authority that an Officer would recieve. His rank is Chief Petty Officer. He is a department head and has the authority to give orders to ensigns that pertain to his duties as Chief of Operations.
Those who choose to join the military as officers must also complete the entrance and medical exams and basic training. They then must earn at least a four year degree. This is called earning a commission. There are several ways one can earn a commission.The most common way is to go the the Academy. The same as Starfleet Officers go to Starfleet Academy. Some officers may choose a career field that has a specialty. A doctor for example. Their career would require more schooling, after which they can graduate as an officer at a higher pay grade. For example, doctor Bashir likely graduated from the Academy as a Lieutenant whereas nog graduated as an ensign.
All officer ranks are above those of Warrent Officer and Enlisted ranks and all Warrent Officer ranks are above those of Enlisted ranks. For example : an O-10, or a Navy Admiral outranks everyone from E-1 through E-9, W-1 through W-5 and O-1 through O-9. An O-1 outranks everyone from E-1 through E-9 and W-1 through W-5.
Of course, as I stated before, Enlisted who have reached the last tiers of Enlisted ranks, E-8's, E-9's, and Warrent Officers are usually given the same respect, if not more, than low ranking Officers due to their years of service and the difficulty in reaching such Enlisted ranks.
I hope this kind of helps some of you understand military ranks a little better and some of the issues we've seen on Star Trek with rank that may confuse some people. Like O'Brien having the authority to order nog around and being so respected by the officers even though they all officially outrank him.
No matter the branch, there are two types of soldiers, just as there are two types of starfleet persons, enlisted and officers. All enlisted ranks correspond to a paygrade denoted by the terms E-1 through E-9. Between enlisted and officer is what is referred to as Warrent Officers, W-1 through W-5. The higest ranks are the officer ranks, O-1 through O-10.
When you join the military, you have the possiblility of enlisting, joining as an elisted person, or becoming an officer, or earning a commission. Enlisted personel are required to pass an entrance exam, medical exam and then graduate from basic training which is number of weeks depending on the branch and chosen career field as well as completing career training, the length of which depends on the chosen career. Most types of enlisted soldiers graduate from training within a couple of months. Enlisted promotion up to a certain point depend on time in grade, where you are simply promoted based solely on how long you've held your particular rank granted your service is still in good standing. Those ranks are usualy E-1 to E-4. E-5's to E-9's are referred to as Nco's. Non commissioned officers. Their promotions are based on performance and completion of several week Nco school according to their rank.
Warrent officer rank is most generally given to Nco's who have earned a four year degree and shown a profiency in their career as an enlisted person. They are given the same respect as an officer would recieve and work directly with the enlisted personel. They usually hold a position as head of a department the same as an officer would and have the same responsiblilites and authority, sometimes more authority and responsiblity than a respective commisioned officer. A good example of this would be chief O' Brien. He is an elisted man that has proved his proficiency in his chosen career, moved through the entire elisted rank structure and has been given the same duties and authority that an Officer would recieve. His rank is Chief Petty Officer. He is a department head and has the authority to give orders to ensigns that pertain to his duties as Chief of Operations.
Those who choose to join the military as officers must also complete the entrance and medical exams and basic training. They then must earn at least a four year degree. This is called earning a commission. There are several ways one can earn a commission.The most common way is to go the the Academy. The same as Starfleet Officers go to Starfleet Academy. Some officers may choose a career field that has a specialty. A doctor for example. Their career would require more schooling, after which they can graduate as an officer at a higher pay grade. For example, doctor Bashir likely graduated from the Academy as a Lieutenant whereas nog graduated as an ensign.
All officer ranks are above those of Warrent Officer and Enlisted ranks and all Warrent Officer ranks are above those of Enlisted ranks. For example : an O-10, or a Navy Admiral outranks everyone from E-1 through E-9, W-1 through W-5 and O-1 through O-9. An O-1 outranks everyone from E-1 through E-9 and W-1 through W-5.
Of course, as I stated before, Enlisted who have reached the last tiers of Enlisted ranks, E-8's, E-9's, and Warrent Officers are usually given the same respect, if not more, than low ranking Officers due to their years of service and the difficulty in reaching such Enlisted ranks.
I hope this kind of helps some of you understand military ranks a little better and some of the issues we've seen on Star Trek with rank that may confuse some people. Like O'Brien having the authority to order nog around and being so respected by the officers even though they all officially outrank him.
I don't think Janeway has the ability to promote herself.
She's able to promote others yes, probably up to a rank of commander.
I wouldn't know if captains can promote commanders into captains (probably not, unless the circumstances are extraordinary to begin in which SF officials cannot be contacted or are deceased and there's an extra ship that needs someone in charge).
She's able to promote others yes, probably up to a rank of commander.
I wouldn't know if captains can promote commanders into captains (probably not, unless the circumstances are extraordinary to begin in which SF officials cannot be contacted or are deceased and there's an extra ship that needs someone in charge).
Janeway could have built more ships.
In season 1 they claimed they could run Voyager with 100 crew, after 5 years of upgrades and enhanced automation, One lone Denobulan ran the entire show. No? It was a Borg... but? How odd. The same script you say? How naughty.
It took them a day to build the delta flier. How long to build a nova class, or defiant class, or steam runner class? How long to build two, if they could automate a holographic crew on all three, or actually took on crew during their adventures after the first day... Would Janeway have to make sure that Voyager remained the tactically superior ship so that Captain Tuvok or Captain Chakotay didn't "accidentally" assume fleet command? Surely to maintain the pecking order she would have to have bumped her self up to fleet Captain at least, since a gun ship like the Defiant class is obviously tactically superior to Voyager since it is nothing but a huge honking space gun stapled to a warp drive. Which would mean that she would have to build inferior ships on purpose to maintain control, and limit upgrades and enhancements... How rude!
In season 1 they claimed they could run Voyager with 100 crew, after 5 years of upgrades and enhanced automation, One lone Denobulan ran the entire show. No? It was a Borg... but? How odd. The same script you say? How naughty.
It took them a day to build the delta flier. How long to build a nova class, or defiant class, or steam runner class? How long to build two, if they could automate a holographic crew on all three, or actually took on crew during their adventures after the first day... Would Janeway have to make sure that Voyager remained the tactically superior ship so that Captain Tuvok or Captain Chakotay didn't "accidentally" assume fleet command? Surely to maintain the pecking order she would have to have bumped her self up to fleet Captain at least, since a gun ship like the Defiant class is obviously tactically superior to Voyager since it is nothing but a huge honking space gun stapled to a warp drive. Which would mean that she would have to build inferior ships on purpose to maintain control, and limit upgrades and enhancements... How rude!
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