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Could Janeway give Naomi Orders?

Guy Gardener

Guy Gardener

Fleet Admiral
Admiral
I've often exclaimed that Voyager (as a federation Colony) needed a civilian government to keep Janeway in check, but since everyone was already in Starfleet, conscripted prison labour (That includes Seven. She's a massmurderer.) or just a bloody foreigner they could toss off to the curbside without much of a second thought, there didn't seem much need for a civil authority.

Starfleet works for the Federation Citizenry, not the other way around.

Naomi is a Federation Citizen with no obligations to adhere to the orders of some random middle ranked officer as long as she is "law abiding" even if it means she's confined to quarters for the whole voyage home.

But really, this just means that Naomi can say things like "no" or "I think not" or even '"Go screw yourself" just like you would feel compelled to do so also if some bugger in jackboots marched into your home dictating and limiting your development and lifestyle.

There would have been problems down the road if the trip home had lasted longer, especuially as Miral entered puberty testign her boudaries.
 
Of course. Naomi might not be in Starfleet, but as a passenger on Voyager, she is still subject to the Captain's orders. EVERYONE on the ship is.

Janeway, as captain of Voyager, is responsible for the safety of everyone on board, regardless of rank (or lack thereof). Just because Naomi is a civilian doesn't mean she doesn't have to follow Janeway's instructions. Although in practice, Naomi is unlikely to have to face this situation, since her mother is a member of the crew and will usually be the one telling Naomi what to do. Only if Samantha were off the ship (on an away mission), or incapacitated, or if *Naomi* were off the ship with someone else, would this change.

But in general, it's like this: If any one of us chooses to fly on an airplane, take a cruise on a passenger liner, or visit a Navy ship - indeed, any ship at all - we would have to follow the orders of *that* crew. Simply setting foot on a ship puts you under direct control of whoever runs it.

You fly on a plane, for example, you do whatever the crew says (otherwise you are likely to face armed law enforcement personnel after the plane lands). The simple fact that they ARE the crew, gives them that right.
 
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You obviously missed the list of unused sixth-season scripts. There was a real gold mine there. One of my favorites, of course, is "Playing House", where Naomi decides she's the mommy and orders Janeway to clean her room.

Spoilers: Neelix's endless pots of coffee keep Janeway going as she scrubs her quarters clean. Somehow, not really sure how, but somehow Seven of Nine learns a valuable lesson from all this.
 
Voyager was a federation colony?

What argument could be made for this that wouldn't include any other starfleet vessel?
 
Guy Gardener said:
I've often exclaimed that Voyager (as a federation Colony) needed a civilian government to keep Janeway in check.

Naomi is a Federation Citizen with no obligations to adhere to the orders of some random middle ranked officer as long as she is "law abiding" even if it means she's confined to quarters for the whole voyage home.
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The Enterprise-D had a sizable civilian population, with no known civilian government on board. (In fact, the "Federation" is technically the government, while "Starfleet" is merely the defense force). There are several episodes where children on board the Enterprise-D show respect and take orders from the officers and even Captain Picard. Naomi didn't choose to be on Voyager, but her mother did, and if Samantha didn't want Naomi to get ordered around, she could have resigned her commission and taken Naomi to any of the M-class planets Voyager passed on the way back to Earth.

What you suggest with a civilian government is similar to Battlestar Galactica, but even that series had multiple civilian ships in fleet with a military vessel, so it made sense to have the civilian government alongside the military. Voyager was just one ship, with only 150 crew members, nearly all of which were starfleet.
 
Yeah, I'll never really get the "Voyager should have been like BSG" argument on this matter. Remarkably different scenarios -- one ship and 150 individuals seeking a home they knew existed versus several dozen ships and 50,000+ individuals seeking a legend.
 
While I will agree that SF and the Federation government are working for the civilians (and not the other way around), I would kindly remind you that certain civilians who weren't part of SF apparently have the right not to be ordered around by the captains, or are not directly bound by the Prime Directive.
These rules predominantly extend to SF officers because they are the frontline of the Federation and handle everything for the most part.

I would surmise that most civilians in SF don't really do things such as breaking the prime directive, but there have been some who broke several laws and were subject to the courts for example (or their equivalents of such).

In terms of taking orders from the captain... civilians as far as I was able to tell have the right to refuse (unless there's an emergency situation for example).
Children such as Naomi don't have problems following Janeway's orders because they grew accustomed to the said chain of command (plus the ship was stranded in the DQ)- and her mother is a SF officer.

Certain children on the other hand who don't feel the need to conform too much to those parameters probably have the freedom to do what they want as long as they don't put others in danger.

Picard had to concede to the civilians on several occasions.
voyager was different as it was agreed from the get go that everyone would become SF, and with that, they had to abide by the rules (Kes and Neelix being the exceptions, but they wanted to be a part of that crew)
Children born on Voyager would probably be considered civilians unless they decided to become part of SF.
 
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Is Naomi a Federation citizen?

She was born far from Fed territory and her birth would never have been registered officially...for all intents and purposes she's an immigrant...
 
The_Baron said:
Is Naomi a Federation citizen?

She was born far from Fed territory and her birth would never have been registered officially...for all intents and purposes she's an immigrant...
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Naomi's parents are both Federation citizens; therefore, so is she. Also she was born on a Starfleet vessel (all Starfleet vessels are Federation territory, regardless of where in space they happen to be).

Either one of those things qualifies Naomi to be a full Federation citizen.
 
Mr. Laser Beam said:
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Naomi's parents are both Federation citizens; therefore, so is she. Also she was born on a Starfleet vessel (all Starfleet vessels are Federation territory, regardless of where in space they happen to be).

Either one of those things qualifies Naomi to be a full Federation citizen.
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You're assuming the Federation has the same standards of citizenship as the present USA.

If it were to follow the French system for example, your second point is invalid -- you can be born in Paris, but it doesn't make you French. Indian law, as another example, only grants you Indian citizenship when you have Indian parents, but when you're born outside the country if your birth is registered within a year.
 
I think, given that both Naomi's parents were Federation citizens and she was born on a Federation starship, that Naomi would be considered a Federation citizen too.
 
I think she'd have to be a Federation citizen. Otherwise, you'd rule out citizenship for Molly O'Brien, Miral Paris, Nurse Ogawa's (unnamed) child, and any other baby born on a starship. And if they aren't Federation citizens, then what are they?
 
Except of course that Sam Wildeman that raised Naomi was a quantum duplicate and everyone was too namby fricking pamby to fill out adoption papers to solidify the relationship between Sam and Naomi.

According to Deadlock the crew/ship that survived had the wrong quantum signature. Kim and Naomi are the only Federation citizens, and the only human beings on site till Seven and the Equinox crew signed up aboard that ship, which isn't a Federation Vessel. Ipso facto Kim outranked Janeway.

If Tom Disobeys orders he gets 30 days in the brig.

If Naomi disobeys orders, the only thing Janeway can do is tell her mother to deal with her, or restrict her access to the ship. Janeway can take away liberties but she can't really penalize someone who isn't breaking the law/or regularions (if they're inStarfleet) or subject to her every whim.

Hang on.

What about Seska?

I suppose pretending to join Starfleet is just as binding as actually joining Starfleet, so never mind.
 
tighr said:
I think she'd have to be a Federation citizen. Otherwise, you'd rule out citizenship for Molly O'Brien, Miral Paris, Nurse Ogawa's (unnamed) child, and any other baby born on a starship. And if they aren't Federation citizens, then what are they?
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Well Molly and Ogawas's nippers may well have been born within Federation borders, and either way, they were close enough to Fed-space that the birth could easily have been registered.

Same with Miral, she was born in the Alpha Quadrant, right smack-bang next to Earth.

Naomi was born on the other side of the galaxy, with no way for her birth to be registered. when my daughter was born, she had to be registered before she was legally considered a UK citizen.
 
Registration is a bold word.

(I AM NOT A NUMBER!)

What if both Naomi's had survived Deadlock and Sam raised and loved the two of them the same?

I suppose if they accept monkey like Tom Riker, they'd accept a cute baby like Naomi as "close enough". Although if Naomi Grew up to be a reprobate, maybe they'd decide to revise that decision, although Tom seemingly kept his citizenship despite turn Maquis, however if you're disenfranchised, your government loses a great fraction of the authority needed to punish you for being a dick rather than just insisting on deportation.
 
I suspect Federation Law allows for persons considered to be it citizens to be more a case of born to Federation citizen(s) rather than born within federation terrirotory, whether that be a ship or planet. So for example a Klingon born within Federation space might not automatically be entitleed to Federation Nationality.
 
I'm imagining a battalion of nothing but pregnant klingon warriors.

Whether it's their job to stay pregnant, making new warriors for the Empire, or like one of those High Schools where they ship off the preggos until they pop, I'm not completely sure, but if there's 50 pregnant women running at you with bat'leths what sort of asshole is going to be inhuman enough to open fire?
 
Paul Weaver said:
You're assuming the Federation has the same standards of citizenship as the present USA.
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I see no reason not to. :shrug:

If it were to follow the French system for example, your second point is invalid -- you can be born in Paris, but it doesn't make you French. .
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But surely it would, if your parents are French. Same story here: Naomi's parents are both Federation citizens, and she was born in Federation territory, so it is inconceivable that Naomi could be anything other than a full citizen as well.

Now the Voyager crew may have had to wait till they opened communications with Earth (Message in a Bottle?) to actually register Naomi's birth, but that is just a technicality. Before that time, everyone on Voyager would surely recognize her as a UFP citizen. And that is enough, since as I said, the ship IS Federation territory.
 
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