Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOILERS*

[Navaros]

I'm making a new thread about this because this discussion was started in a previous thread, however, to continue it in there would spoil DS9 for someone who hasn't seen that far into the series yet.

Reason I'm making this thread is to further make the case that the Dominion is not bad, and the Federation is not good. Or at the very least, they are both very simlarly bad and good to almost equal degrees.

Frodo Lives said:


But, what do you think they were doing by exploring the Gamma Quadrant if not seeking to make contact with the species and organisations that lived there? How else do you make contact when you have no idea who's there? You wander up and ring the bell, and what did the Dominion do? They blew up the front porch to get rid of those pesky kids at the front door. The Feds were following the most logical course of action in exploring the Gamma Quadrant, the Dominion acted irrationally to them. Then went and made the threat that they were going to come into the Alpha Quadrant and kick their asses.

And it was a deliberate act of aggression against the Federation, we never heard of the Jem Hadar bothering any Ferengi transports wandering around the Gamma Quadrant, incurring into Dominion territory, which there must have been considering they were after more business opportunities there.

They acted aggressively towards the Federation because they wanted to, not because they were encroaching on their territory. Overkill.

scottydog said:
There's no question in my mind that the Federation was the innocent victim of ruthless (and senseless) Dominion aggression. The Federation's goal was to seek out new life and befriend it, to embrace and value different forms of life. In contrast, the Dominion's goal was to destroy all solids. The Federation definitely has the moral high ground.

Not all races are interested in being the guinea pigs for the Federation's exploration fetish. But, the Federation pre-supposes that role upon all unknown races in the univese. They assume that because they like to explore everywhere, all other races should be willing to accomodate their desires. In my view this is an immoral assumption on the part of the Federation in which they are, to a certain degree, trying to assume the role of gods for themselves.

Secondly, the Federation doesn't really explore just for the sake of exploring. Ultimately, their goal is to assimilate new planets into the Federation fold. As Eddington so clearly points out. This is also evident in the very first episode, in which Picard orders Sisko that Sisko's orders are to "Make Bajor ready!" to join the Federation. Whether that's in the best interest of Bajor or if Bajor wants to or not, who cares. Having Bajor sign on the line that is dotted and thereby expand the Federation empire by joining, is the only thing that matters.

The Federation also tries to impose it's way of life on it's member planets who it is at the same time shadily trying to recruit. Like Bajor. We see the Feds assuming the god role for themselves again by saying Bajor can't join if it uses a caste system. Reasonably, Bajor using a caste system is none of the Federation's darn business. And it definitely shows that the Feds do not embrace new ways of life. Rather, they assimilate everyone into their own way of life.

As for the Dominion attacking the Federation right away: solids, and possibly some members of the Federation, have done that to the Founders for many centuries. Therefore, the Dominion had a totally moral, rational reason for reacting as they did to solids creeping up on them without permission. Even if the argument that it wasn't the Federation members specifically who attacked the Founders is used, that is rendered a moot point when the series is taken as a whole. The Federation has by it's own actions - namely, creating the genocide disease against the Founders - then refusing to allow the cure to the genocide disease to be providing to the Founders (instead preferring that the genocide simply kills them all off) - proven that the Dominion's intial concern about the Federation being full of shady bastards who would try to kill them all was 100% correct. Therefore, the initial attack was reasonable based on a correct judgement of the hearts of men. It also shows that the Feds too, are ready, willing and able to commit what is the most heinous possible form of and utlimate overkill: genocide.

It should also be noted, that had the Dominion not made a strong show of force and attacked the Federation, then the Federation would not have heeded their demands to stay away. Opening a "discussion" would have simply resulted in the Federation continuing with their arrogant "we are the gods of the universe" attitude and saying to the Dominion that they are going to keep invading deeper near/into their space because they have a self-appointed right to. This clearly would have been an ineffective approach that is not worth using.

 

[Photon]

Gotta think about this one b/4 making a long comment. Stil, I wish DS9 had given us a 1st Contact w/the Dominion. Maybe a transport headed for New Bajor or a Ferengi trading ship.

I kinda doubt the Jem'Hadar said "turn around or we'll send to that great bank vault in the sky"

 

[Smiley]

The Federation, 99% of the time, did respect the wishes of any race who did not want to be bothered. The Sheliak are one example, and the Malcorians are another. If the Dominion was bothered by the Feds being in the same quadrant as them, tough luck. You can't claim all of space for yourself. The fact that the Dominion tried to conquer the Alpha Quadrant just shows how deep their paranoia went.

 

[Braxton]

Re: Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOIL

The Dominion is evil and anyone that thinks otherwise is fooling themselves. They conquer worlds, enslave races, infect them with diseases like the Quickening and continually overextend their boundaries. Was the Gamma side of the wormhole even IN Dominion space? I don't think it was. Remember, by the time our heroes encounter them, they already know a lot about the powers on the Alpha side of the wormhole. The Dominion did not like the Federation and what it stood for. They saw them as a threat that must be dealt with, ie destroyed and subjugated.

The Federation is not morally superior either. The S31 virus proves that. They have strict regulations on how a race can become a member of the Federation, which is good. You just can't let anyone join. Of course, it does bring about moral and ethical issues. The Prime Directive is another example of the Federation not having a high moral ground, but only in extreme conditions.

 

[scottydog]

Navaros said:
...the Federation doesn't really explore just for the sake of exploring. Ultimately, their goal is to assimilate new planets into the Federation fold. As Eddington so clearly points out. This is also evident in the very first episode, in which Picard orders Sisko that Sisko's orders are to "Make Bajor ready!" to join the Federation. Whether that's in the best interest of Bajor or if Bajor wants to or not, who cares.

Well, this is simply untrue. The Federation tried to convince Bajor to join them, but it leaves the decision entirely up to Bajor.

Navaros said:
The Federation also tries to impose it's way of life on it's member planets who it is at the same time shadily trying to recruit. Like Bajor. We see the Feds assuming the god role for themselves again by saying Bajor can't join if it uses a caste system... it definitely shows that the Feds do not embrace new ways of life.

It seems reasonable to ask people who are possible candidates for joining my organization to conduct themselves in a manner consistent with the values of my organization. Again, it was Bajor's choice whether to change their behavior or not; there was no mandate.

The fact that the Federation does not embrace all types of behavior is one of the Federation's strengths. I wouldn't respect a Federation that condones slavery or murder or discrimination among its membership.

You make it sound like the Federation was occupying Bajor in the same ruthless manner as the Cardassian occupation. In the early seasons of DS9, the Bajorans themselves -- even Kira -- wondered if the Federation presence was no different from the Cardassian occupation. Over time, however, they saw a vast difference in morality between the Feds and the Cards. The Feds harmed no Bajorans; in fact, they assisted Bajor in recovering from decades of damage suffered at the hands of Cardassians. The Feds also gave the Bajorans choices but made no demands.

Navaros said:
As for the Dominion attacking the Federation right away: solids, and possibly some members of the Federation, have done that to the Founders for many centuries. Therefore, the Dominion had a totally moral, rational reason for reacting as they did to solids creeping up on them without permission.

One characteristic of maturity and civility is to refrain from making broad generalizations about an entire group of people based on the actions of a small minority of them. If a left-handed person hurts me, I'm not going to assume that all left-handers are evil. And I'm certainly not going to make it my life's mission to wipe out all lefties from the face of the earth.

So if you think the Dominion had the moral, rational right to destroy all solids because one group of solids far far away once hurt them, well then, your morality is certainly different from mine.

 

[Jono]

Re: Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOIL

Navaros said:
Not all races are interested in being the guinea pigs for the Federation's exploration fetish. But, the Federation pre-supposes that role upon all unknown races in the univese. They assume that because they like to explore everywhere, all other races should be willing to accomodate their desires. In my view this is an immoral assumption on the part of the Federation in which they are, to a certain degree, trying to assume the role of gods for themselves.

I don't see how wanting to go out and see what is out there makes you into a wannabe god.

Secondly, the Federation doesn't really explore just for the sake of exploring. Ultimately, their goal is to assimilate new planets into the Federation fold. As Eddington so clearly points out. This is also evident in the very first episode, in which Picard orders Sisko that Sisko's orders are to "Make Bajor ready!" to join the Federation. Whether that's in the best interest of Bajor or if Bajor wants to or not, who cares. Having Bajor sign on the line that is dotted and thereby expand the Federation empire by joining, is the only thing that matters.

Bajor seemed to have approached the Federation about joining not the other way around.

The Federation also tries to impose it's way of life on it's member planets who it is at the same time shadily trying to recruit. Like Bajor. We see the Feds assuming the god role for themselves again by saying Bajor can't join if it uses a caste system. Reasonably, Bajor using a caste system is none of the Federation's darn business. And it definitely shows that the Feds do not embrace new ways of life. Rather, they assimilate everyone into their own way of life.

Nothing wrong with the Federation having certain criteria that you have to meet to join.

As for the Dominion attacking the Federation right away: solids, and possibly some members of the Federation, have done that to the Founders for many centuries. Therefore, the Dominion had a totally moral, rational reason for reacting as they did to solids creeping up on them without permission. Even if the argument that it wasn't the Federation members specifically who attacked the Founders is used, that is rendered a moot point when the series is taken as a whole. The Federation has by it's own actions - namely, creating the genocide disease against the Founders - then refusing to allow the cure to the genocide disease to be providing to the Founders (instead preferring that the genocide simply kills them all off) - proven that the Dominion's intial concern about the Federation being full of shady bastards who would try to kill them all was 100% correct. Therefore, the initial attack was reasonable based on a correct judgement of the hearts of men. It also shows that the Feds too, are ready, willing and able to commit what is the most heinous possible form of and utlimate overkill: genocide.

How can the Federation have attacked the Founders for centuries if they didn't even know they existed until the 2370s and are on the other side of the galaxy?

The Changeling virus was created in response to the Dominion's stance against the Federation. The Dominion really didn't do much to show that they would peacefully coexist with the Federation and the Dominion showed that they have no issues with wiping out other races, so their extreme actions bred Section 31's response. Not saying its right.

It should also be noted, that had the Dominion not made a strong show of force and attacked the Federation, then the Federation would not have heeded their demands to stay away. Opening a "discussion" would have simply resulted in the Federation continuing with their arrogant "we are the gods of the universe" attitude and saying to the Dominion that they are going to keep invading deeper near/into their space because they have a self-appointed right to. This clearly would have been an ineffective approach that is not worth using.

The Federation respects the borders of other empires/non-members for the most part. Look at the various neutral zones that have existed, the Federation rarely violated these agreements.

The Dominion by its very nature is designed to aggressive go forth and swallow territory into itself. Its expansion is done in such a way as you can't refuse because if you do they just conquer you or wipe you out. The Federation will at least give you a choice to join and if you don't will leave you, but will keep the offer open.

 

[Navaros]

scottydemon said:


Well, this is simply untrue. The Federation tried to convince Bajor to join them, but it leaves the decision entirely up to Bajor.

rofeta said:


The Dominion by its very nature is designed to aggressive go forth and swallow territory into itself. Its expansion is done in such a way as you can't refuse because if you do they just conquer you or wipe you out. The Federation will at least give you a choice to join and if you don't will leave you, but will keep the offer open.

That's not very accurate, though. Bajor has said no to joining the Federation numerous times in the series. But does the Federation accept that no means no? Of course not. They just keep hounding Bajor ad infinitum until eventually they change their answer to yes. That's why Sisko was there, to get them to say yes, no matter how many times they have said no first.

The Dominion may expand it's empire in a slightly different way by direct aggression, but at the end of the day, it's more or less the same thing. Carrying out a shady means to an end to get the result based on self-interest.

scottydemon said:
One characteristic of maturity and civility is to refrain from making broad generalizations about an entire group of people based on the actions of a small minority of them. If a left-handed person hurts me, I'm not going to assume that all left-handers are evil. And I'm certainly not going to make it my life's mission to wipe out all lefties from the face of the earth.


So if you think the Dominion had the moral, rational right to destroy all solids because one group of solids far far away once hurt them, well then, your morality is certainly different from mine.

But that generalization by the Dominion beared itself out to be correct. The "prime" examples of moral humanity, did exactly what the Dominion thought it would, ie: started a genocide against the Founders. So how can it be wrong for the Dominion to have held that belief, since it was indeed correct. This reasonably makes it very hard to fault the Dominion for having that belief.

I'm sure the Dominion wouldn't have destroyed all solids so long as they knew the Founders would be safe from them. Ie: if the solids all surrendered to them or joined the Dominion in order to ensure peace. So stating it as if wiping them all out was the only option on the table, is a bit over the top.

 

[Yassim]

Navaros said:
That's not very accurate, though. Bajor has said no to joining the Federation numerous times in the series. But does the Federation accept that no means no? Of course not.

I count once during "Rapture" (at Sisko's request) and possibly another one during "The Circle" trilogy. If one recognizes the legitimacy of that request. Which was reversed by the next government.

They just keep hounding Bajor ad infinitum until eventually they change their answer to yes.

I'm glad I don't live on a planet where the government caves in to "constant hounding". If I keep asking Bajor to sleep with me, will they eventually do it?

But that generalization by the Dominion beared itself out to be correct. The "prime" examples of moral humanity, did exactly what the Dominion thought it would, ie: started a genocide against the Founders. So how can it be wrong for the Dominion to have held that belief, since it was indeed correct. This reasonably makes it very hard to fault the Dominion for having that belief.

Unless you think that the Dominion yields the moral high ground by killing Bajoran and Federation citizens with no declaration of war, no warnings and no negotiation. Without defending the Founder disease, it happened after the Dominion began the hostilities.

Your argument sounds like a defense for me punching you in the face, because after I do that, you'll try to punch me back. So I'd better punch you first.

I'm going to have a long day, punching everyone I meet.

 

[Unicron]

Re: Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOIL

Navaros said:

Reason I'm making this thread is to further make the case that the Dominion is not bad, and the Federation is not good. Or at the very least, they are both very simlarly bad and good to almost equal degrees.

I will agree that neither government is perfect, nor are any of the other Trek governments. But the Federation has alway been built on some sort of democratic relationship, while the Founders built the Dominion on paranoia and fear. Their need to protect themselves was valid, but their method of doing so (i.e. annexing other Gamma Quadrant powers by force or threat, as they later tried to do in the AQ) was wrong. The Founders were unwilling to admit that not every solid was like the ones who hunted them millenia before, and hadn't even been out in space for millenia after their retreat.

Secondly, the Federation doesn't really explore just for the sake of exploring. Ultimately, their goal is to assimilate new planets into the Federation fold. As Eddington so clearly points out. This is also evident in the very first episode, in which Picard orders Sisko that Sisko's orders are to "Make Bajor ready!" to join the Federation. Whether that's in the best interest of Bajor or if Bajor wants to or not, who cares. Having Bajor sign on the line that is dotted and thereby expand the Federation empire by joining, is the only thing that matters.

Considering Eddington was a Maquis, I wouldn't put too much reliability in him. Some of the Maquis had valid reasons for feeling the Federation had abandoned them to the Cardassians, but others just joined so they could have someone to fight. And Sisko's role was to make Bajor ready because a significant portion of its people were interested in membership. If the Feds were really so bent on assimilation, they'd have already forced the planet to join.

The Federation also tries to impose it's way of life on it's member planets who it is at the same time shadily trying to recruit. Like Bajor. We see the Feds assuming the god role for themselves again by saying Bajor can't join if it uses a caste system. Reasonably, Bajor using a caste system is none of the Federation's darn business. And it definitely shows that the Feds do not embrace new ways of life. Rather, they assimilate everyone into their own way of life.

On the contrary, the Feds opposed the Bajoran caste system because it was purely discriminatory, regulating how Bajorans were supposed to live their lives arbitrarily. It's no different from how the federal government overruled the racist laws in the South. If the caste system were actually a viable necessity for the Bajoran government/society, then the case would have been different.

As for the Dominion attacking the Federation right away: solids, and possibly some members of the Federation, have done that to the Founders for many centuries. Therefore, the Dominion had a totally moral, rational reason for reacting as they did to solids creeping up on them without permission. Even if the argument that it wasn't the Federation members specifically who attacked the Founders is used, that is rendered a moot point when the series is taken as a whole. The Federation has by it's own actions - namely, creating the genocide disease against the Founders - then refusing to allow the cure to the genocide disease to be providing to the Founders (instead preferring that the genocide simply kills them all off) - proven that the Dominion's intial concern about the Federation being full of shady bastards who would try to kill them all was 100% correct. Therefore, the initial attack was reasonable based on a correct judgement of the hearts of men. It also shows that the Feds too, are ready, willing and able to commit what is the most heinous possible form of and utlimate overkill: genocide.

As has already been said, the Changeling disease was a desperate weapon to hold off the Dominion tides, based again on the Founders ASSUMING all solids were evil and prejudiced. They would have gladly committed genocide against the AQ powers (and proved that readily when the Cardassians disagreed with them) on the basis of their paranoia.

It should also be noted, that had the Dominion not made a strong show of force and attacked the Federation, then the Federation would not have heeded their demands to stay away. Opening a "discussion" would have simply resulted in the Federation continuing with their arrogant "we are the gods of the universe" attitude and saying to the Dominion that they are going to keep invading deeper near/into their space because they have a self-appointed right to. This clearly would have been an ineffective approach that is not worth using.

This is a faulty assumption, based on the Dominion's self-appointed claim to the whole DQ. The buildup to hostilities was based on the Dominion's efforts to destablize the Klingon Empire and the other AQ/BQ powers, thus threatening the security of the Feds. It would be kind of like Mexico claiming it had sole rights to its neighbors in Central America, and trying to destabilize stuff in the states to keep the U.S. at bay. Not an exact comparison obviously, but the result is the same.

 

[Jono]

Re: Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOIL

Bajor invited the Federation to have a presence in their system with interest in becoming a member of the body. I don't see any issues with why the Feds were there or in what they did. I don't recall anywhere where Sisko is shown "hounding" the Bajoran government into joining.

 

[-Brett-]

Navaros said:Even if the argument that it wasn't the Federation members specifically who attacked the Founders is used, that is rendered a moot point when the series is taken as a whole. The Federation has by it's own actions - namely, creating the genocide disease against the Founders - then refusing to allow the cure to the genocide disease to be providing to the Founders (instead preferring that the genocide simply kills them all off) - proven that the Dominion's intial concern about the Federation being full of shady bastards who would try to kill them all was 100% correct. Therefore, the initial attack was reasonable based on a correct judgement of the hearts of men. It also shows that the Feds too, are ready, willing and able to commit what is the most heinous possible form of and utlimate overkill: genocide.

Basically, what you're saying here is that if you go up to a guy and punch him in the face, and he punches you back, then you were right to punch him in the first place because you proved that he's a violent thug just looking for an excuse to punch you.

If you want your neighbors to keep their kids off your lawn, the rational person first politely asks them to. Kidnapping Little Ben and telling his daddy (lets call him Starfleet) to leave you alone is just not the way to go about it.

 

[Timo]

Re: Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOIL

Then again, it's not Little Ben who got to the lawn (he just played with the cool if a bit squeaky gate). It was his parents, toting uniforms and assault rifles...

The Dominion said no to trespassing. The Feds said no to that no. The Feds could have said yes, without any harm to their ideals about how the galaxy should be ruled. A few thousand UFP / Bajoran people would still be dead, but on the plus side, a few trillion would not.

Bajor invited the Federation to have a presence in their system with interest in becoming a member of the body.

Bajor invited Starfleet to fill in a power vacuum when their own military was in shambles, by the very specific and narrow mandate of asking them to administrate the space station. Neither their religious, civilian or military leadership, nor even factions or opposing groups thereof, indicated any willingness to fraternize with the Federation beyond that, in "Emissary" or the subsequent episodes. It's just that some of these groups were more vocal or physical in their opposition to the UFP presence than others.

Starfleet probably was a fairly safe bet for a Dane in that situation, on the short term. But one wonders if Bajor wouldn't have been better off hiring the Nausicaans. They at least wouldn't have gone hunting for the mythical Heavenly Temple...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jono]

Re: Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOIL

Timo said:
Then again, it's not Little Ben who got to the lawn (he just played with the cool if a bit squeaky gate). It was his parents, toting uniforms and assault rifles...

The Dominion said no to trespassing. The Feds said no to that no. The Feds could have said yes, without any harm to their ideals about how the galaxy should be ruled. A few thousand UFP / Bajoran people would still be dead, but on the plus side, a few trillion would not.

Bajor invited the Federation to have a presence in their system with interest in becoming a member of the body.

Bajor invited Starfleet to fill in a power vacuum when their own military was in shambles, by the very specific and narrow mandate of asking them to administrate the space station. Neither their religious, civilian or military leadership, nor even factions or opposing groups thereof, indicated any willingness to fraternize with the Federation beyond that, in "Emissary" or the subsequent episodes. It's just that some of these groups were more vocal or physical in their opposition to the UFP presence than others.

Starfleet probably was a fairly safe bet for a Dane in that situation, on the short term. But one wonders if Bajor wouldn't have been better off hiring the Nausicaans. They at least wouldn't have gone hunting for the mythical Heavenly Temple...

Timo Saloniemi

They must have shown some interest in joining if during the briefing one of Sisko's goals was to prepare them for admission into the Federation.

 

[Timo]

Re: Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOIL

Why would Starfleet's wish projections have to be based on actual Bajoran intiative? The Feds were served a cold shoulder wherever they went, including the station where they were invited. Only Ben Sisko himself got a different treatment, for unknowingly being a local deity.

One of Picard's goals in going to arbitrate in Klingon Chancellorship succession no doubt was "preparing them for admission into the Federation", too. And let's not forget Kirk and his specific orders to gate-crash the Melkots and the Eminians/Vendikans at whatever cost, or his standing orders that were used as justification for forcing entry to the First Federation. "Preparing" the species, cultures and individuals encountered is portrayed as more or less standard Starfleet and Federation policy and practice.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jono]

Re: Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOIL

Starfleet's job is to go out explore, meet new people, become friends and hopefully bring them into the Federation.

It isn't hard to see the Feds getting the cold shoulder from the ex-freedom fighter lot. I think Kira said that they fought to get rid of the Cardassians just to have the Bajoran "government" immediately call in another foreign power to "keep an eye" on things.

I just thought that Bajor might have posed the idea to the Federation, maybe with no real intention of following through. Sort of a carrot into front of them to get the Federation and Starfleet to quickly move in and set up shop to keep the Cardassians at a distance.

 

[Braxton]

Re: Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOIL

If Starfleet was immoral, they would not have been against Sisko being Bajor's Emissary. Throughout the series we are told that Starfleet does not like it and even at times forces Sisko to choose one way or the other (with Sisko always choosing Starfleet). If the Federation was immoral, they would have used Sisko's position to their advantage. They didn't. In times of war, people are desperate and have the tendency to create terrible weapons to be used in that war.

Let's not forget that Starfleet ordered Picard to send Hugh back to the Borg with this virus or whatever it was (I can't remember exactly, sorry) with the intent of destroying the Borg. Do you consider this immoral? Picard didn't follow those orders, we all know that. but is destroying a race that is bent on conquering others and enslaving them really a bad thing? If you had the opportunity to destroy the Borg or even the Dominion, would you do it no matter the cost? Even if you were against such things, would you do it? Would you break your oath so you can destroy your worst enemy?

 

[Unicron]

Re: Continuing discussion of morality of Feds vs. Doms*SPOIL

Timo said:

One of Picard's goals in going to arbitrate in Klingon Chancellorship succession no doubt was "preparing them for admission into the Federation", too.

What makes you say that? Picard was chosen because most of the High Council members were corrupt, and no Klingon could be trusted to carry out the succession honorably. I do agree that Picard wanted to preserve the alliance between the two powers, but that's not the same as trying to use his position to stick the Fed foot in the door.