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Conquering a world in ST- Impossible?

NaughtyTrekkie

Lieutenant Commander
Red Shirt
I was thinking: klingons try to take DS9, a well-armed but quite little base with, how many?, a hundred ships and failed.
Later in the series dominion deploys a combined fleet of 1254 ships, and it seems a really big number of ship to our hero, and this is the most big fleet we heard of.

So, conquering a world, an advanced world, with its own defense fleet, Surface and orbiting planet defense devices, orbiing station and so on, how can be possible?
 
This wouldn't hold for a space station like DS9 or say the interstellar Borg platforms we see in Voyager, where attacks that will kill will also often destroy what you are trying to take, but for a world, one answer seems obvious to me: kill everyone. I'd say that, at that point, you've conquered it. Overwhelm their weaponry and then General Order 24 them out of existence. You win.

If slave labor is your goal, though, then it would be harder. But the Cardassians pulled it off with Bajor. I don't know exactly how they did it, but we can assume that the Bajoran planetary defenses were overwhelmed. Then the Cardassians would land ground forces and take control of key installations. First and foremost, after communications: I know the first thing I would do in subduing a hostile people is take control of all major water supplies. Control the water, and in a few days they will come begging.
 
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I just assume that the worlds the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, etc. conquer are generally less advanced, at best maybe a little beyond modern Earth, and probably far below that.

Still, we know that conquering more advanced worlds isn't *that* huge a feat as the Dominion took Betazed and probably a few other planets, as well.
 
I'd also imagine that the Klingons would throw alot more resource into conquering a planet that a rickety old Cardassian built station.
 
We've seen a single vessel poison the atmosphere of a while world rendering it uninhabitable for a particular species, so that's one approach.
 
I was thinking: klingons try to take DS9, a well-armed but quite little base with, how many?, a hundred ships and failed.
Later in the series dominion deploys a combined fleet of 1254 ships, and it seems a really big number of ship to our hero, and this is the most big fleet we heard of.

So, conquering a world, an advanced world, with its own defense fleet, Surface and orbiting planet defense devices, orbiing station and so on, how can be possible?

I don't think you are quite looking at things properly. DS9 [a starbase] is a completely different animal to a planet.

Attacking DS9 is attacking a 'small', heavily armed target. DS9 has multiple rapid-fire torpedo launchers for a start, that it seems to be able to bring to combat with extreme ease. Even a big fleet is easily 'shelled' by DS9. One would also assume, being a starbase, it has very powerful shields [very, very]. If we check Memory Alpha we are told it has:

48 phaser arrays (rotary mounts); 36 phaser emitters (stationary mounts); 3 phaser emitters (sliding mounts); 48+ torpedo launchers, 5,000+ photon torpedoes (after 2372 refit)

That is not a light armament. I would assume DS9 would decimate a Romulan D'Deridex in seconds if it so wished. To pierce those shields, withstand that firepower and actually defeat DS9 no doubt WOULD require a fleet.

Now, in comparison, a planet is huge. HUGE. Really really huge. I'd assume to defend a planet adequately, you would need a fleet. Because a planet will not have the same concentrated firepower tha a starbase would. And as we see in ST, it just isn't realistic to station huge fleets at every single planet an Empire/Federation has. So what then? Well, you can't go building huge starbases at every planet [and a single base wouldn't be enough to 'cover' the entire planet...you could just give a planet with a defensive starbase the Maginot Line treatment] and you certainly can't 'ring' every planet with starbases either. So I'm assuming that most planets have defense craft [not a fleet, not some Galaxy classes...think some fighters] and perhaps some orbital turrets/torpedo's...that sort of thing] and perhaps some have planetary shielding.

I can't help but feel it would be somewhat easier to conquer a planet in Trek than it would be to destroy a full-size starbase. If you manage to win the deep-space, fleet-to-fleet battle against the enemy...then it should simply be a case of warping over to the planet, destroying whatever defenses are there and occupying major cities etc.

I think the problem would be more holding the planet. Occupying an alien world must be a logistical nightmare and then, of course, you have the inevitable counter-attacks by the faction from whom you have stolen the planet.
 
But the Cardassians pulled it off with Bajor. I don't know exactly how they did it
The Bajor government invited them in.

Take over a planet, easy once whatever defenses are gone, if the planet is technological. Assume control of services, power, water, food transportation. Restrict communications, recruit locals to do your policing for you, establish a puppet government.

In any population, there will be people willing to be bought and be raised to the position of the powerful elite.
 
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Bajor was capable of interstellar travel but they were mostly a peaceful agrarian society before the Cardassians came along. They didn't have much military. There's no evidence that the government invited them, I suppose it's possible they tried to bribe some officials saying "Hey, we're gonna take over your planet. If you make it easier for us, you and your family get to live in luxury, otherwise they all die."

It's easy to destroy a planet's population but extremely hard to take it intact.
 
Just what the hell is the Mars Defense Perimeter anyway? Is it seriously just three pods that attempt to intercept an intruder? And what happens if the attacking ship approaches on a vector that doesn't go anywhere near Mars?
 
And then you have Reunification where the Romulans thought they could invade, conquer and control Vulcan with just 2000 troops.

Re: the Cardassian occupation: it looks like the the shoe never explicitly explained how it began.

Except to hint that they were invited in at first and then they colonized the planet.
 
...for a world, one answer seems obvious to me: kill everyone. I'd say that, at that point, you've conquered it.

But killing the defenders is the very thing the defenses prevent you from doing.

Say, you manage to slip a Genesis device through those defenses and kill all twelve billion people down on the planet, while mutating said planet to one ideal for your species and its needs. You still haven't defeated those well-shielded defenses in orbit, and you still don't have access to the planet. A conquest has not taken place until you remove the defenders. And the defenders by definition aren't a soft target, even if a planet may be.

One way to get around the defenses would be to blackmail the population. But while a single starship in orbit can do that in fantastically many ways, the life expectancy of single starships in defended orbit is apparently counted in milliseconds.

Perhaps the invader could slip in a biochemical poison of some sort with a saturation missile attack, then withhold the antidote until the defenders capitulate? The thing is, we haven't seen saturation missile attacks in action, so we don't know exactly how defenses would cope with those - or even whether the defenses happen to be so good at dealing with those that our failure to see any such attacks simply directly follows from the fact that they can't be done.

We've seen a single vessel poison the atmosphere of a while world rendering it uninhabitable for a particular species, so that's one approach.

But that's against planets that are undefended. Since every invasion worth the name involves hundreds of starships, and a force of two dozen is explicitly declared too small to be for invasion in "Redemption", it sounds safe to assume that invasions in general face defended planets and cannot be conducted by single ships per planet.

Were there proper and apparently common defenses in place, you'd probably have to fire a million projectiles at the world to get one poison canister down there, even if the one did suffice. This may be one reason why genocidal weapons don't enjoy particular popularity in Trek: you can only afford so many silver bullets, and you really need to fire those from a Minigun. The other reason may be that "slip-through" weapons that do noticeable destruction don't help with getting hold of a planet's resources, as they cannot be used with any sort of precision.

Just what the hell is the Mars Defense Perimeter anyway? Is it seriously just three pods that attempt to intercept an intruder? And what happens if the attacking ship approaches on a vector that doesn't go anywhere near Mars?

The name itself sounds descriptive enough. It defends Mars; and if the attacking ships are vectored elsewhere, then it is doing its job admirably!

No doubt it features a broad range of armaments, with a little something for every invader. It just happens that gigantic indestructible cubes full of cyborgs won't mind most of those defenses, being something of an outlier as threats go. (I gather those missiles would have been excellent weapons against Space Amoebae!)

The bottom line in general seems to be that defenses trump invasions by a massive margin. Else there would be far more invasions, conducted with far fewer resources. Not to mention a lot more "sub-invasion" attacks, such as terror bombings, which never seem to happen in Trek wars (only in domestic quarrels like the Maquis hunt).

Timo Saloniemi
 
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I'm pleased that seems to back up my point...in a rather extreme way. I was going to add to my original post that I would assume certain key, strategic planets would have a greater defense fleet than just fighters. But if Earth has so little then who knows.
 
I think a lot of Federation planets got fat and lazy because they had Starfleet to rely on once they joined. Then you have naive pacifist planets that probably wouldn't permit a strong military presence around their world, leaving them open to attack. You also have Federation arrogance at play, colony worlds (like Rana IV for example) feel that there won't be anyone to threaten them. They live in Roddenberry's ideal society - many characters pontificate about no poverty, crime, etc. Their little colony planet is safe in Federation space, nobody would want to hurt them! This hubris has been the downfall of several worlds and outposts in the Federation. It is showcased by the typical comment of disbelief made on the bridge as they approach the devastated planet/shattered space station: "Who would do something like this?!"
That being said, it seems the preferred method is surgical strikes against cities. Data warned the colonists of Tau Cygni V that the Sheliak will wipe them out from orbit. The Sheliak refer to "removing the infestation" of humans, the assumed goal being to conquer the planet using a surgical strike. In the TNG episode The Chase we saw starships destroying entire biospheres, the threat of which could certainly lead to conquest. There were references to this type of thing in TOS (Kirk encountered races that made observations about the Enterprise's ability to lay waste to a world from orbit). My personal favorite is how Empress Sato conquered Earth (for whatever duration) - "Surrender now or I start targeting your cities."
 
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