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COMPOSITING CHALLENGE :)

spockboy

Captain
Captain
Hey Fellas,
Over on another thread we are discussing The Good the Bad and the Ugly about Star Trek Remastered.

Someone pointed out obvious poor compositioning in Tomorrow is Yesterday.
tosandtosr.jpg


Then someone else said:

"Different types of obvious fakery. The former looks like a real object badly bluescreened onto a unconvincing backdrop , the latter looks like an unreal object beautifully composited on a more convincing backdrop"

So that got me thinking. What WOULD Star Trek look like with perfectly composited shots of the original model?
There are all kinds of pictures out there including blue screen shots, all kinds of great artists(that's you guys)

so let's have at it!


My first offering is the Tomorrow is Yesterday Earth shot.

grainy3.jpg


Some of the resources out there...

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/birdofthegalaxy/sets/72157619514479789/

:) Spockboy
 
I always thought it was funny that the numbers are backwards on that "Tomorrow Is Yesterday" cap. Obviously they had reversed the decals so that the model could appear to be filmed from the other side but then they flipped the film so that the model orientation is correct. Went through all of the trouble to flip the decals and then didn't use the effect. lol

The miniature here was filmed to appear like this:

Note that the registry numbers are correct here (although you need to rotate 180 degrees to read them).

 
...
grainy3.jpg


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[/I]:) Spockboy

Some things jump out at me in this image.

1) The heavy film grain on the ship contrasts sharply with the clean image of the planet. That, combined with the very crisp outline of an otherwise blurry ship, really slaps me in the face.

2) The image has an obvious light source, the sun, which does not agree with the lighting angle on the ship or the light on the clouds in the planet's atmosphere.

3) The blue on the planet and the yellow of the sun are so much more saturated than any color on the Enterprise. This also make sit all stand out as a composite.

In short, the whole image really needs to be tied together much better. Sure, basically EVERY image of a starship is a composite, and we know that, but this one really screams at you about how it's a composite. Goes to show how tough this can be to get right.

--Alex
 
What Albertese said. Good luck mixing these together as there's a host of stylistic and lighting differences that most likely cannot be reconciled.
 
...
grainy3.jpg


...
[/I]:) Spockboy

Some things jump out at me in this image.

1) The heavy film grain on the ship contrasts sharply with the clean image of the planet. That, combined with the very crisp outline of an otherwise blurry ship, really slaps me in the face.

Actually if you look where the sun is, THAT is how much grain is on the planet as well.
Second, the ship is blurred because it is a bad image which is out of my control.
Third, below is one of YOUR pieces, and when it comes to overly sharp edges, um... people in glass houses dude ;)


ClassAFreighterLightspeed2.jpg



2) The image has an obvious light source, the sun, which does not agree with the lighting angle on the ship or the light on the clouds in the planet's atmosphere.

Okay well this is hilarious! It is the Enterprise with a thousand suns, every Trek fan knows that and I am obviously constrained by that.
I tried to put a little sun flare on the left side to blend it better but it obviously wasn't enough :)



3) The blue on the planet and the yellow of the sun are so much more saturated than any color on the Enterprise. This also make sit all stand out as a composite.

Again the problem is I am stuck with the poor quality of the original Enterprise pic. I suppose I could increase it but the original color is lost from going through the optical printer, age, and studio lights etc etc I guess I could have de-saturated the planet and sun.
Will give that a shot.


In short, the whole image really needs to be tied together much better. Sure, basically EVERY image of a starship is a composite, and we know that, but this one really screams at you about how it's a composite. Goes to show how tough this can be to get right.

--Alex

Agreed this particular project is difficult and perhaps I bit off more than I can chew but the title of this thread is Compositing CHALLENGE.

Since you obviously do compositing, then MAKE the changes you are suggesting in YOUR version and show me up.
That's what I want. Then I will do a better one, then someone else will, and all of us will be the better for some healthy competition and we will have a great thread.

Everybody wins. :)

As someone who listens to constructive criticism, here it is again with your suggestions...

newversion.jpg
 
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^^^
Oh my...

Well, this second take is improved. You are quite correct to say the Enterprise here is too poor an image to improve. And I would suggest grading down the other images to match it, rather than trying to somehow grade up the spaceship. Which it looks like you've done. Only I would suggest a gaussian blur to the planet image before adding the film grain noise.

And, I wasn't trying to throw stones from my glass house (from which I love the view, but damn, window washers are expensive!). Just offering some constructive criticism. And I actually completely agree that the image of mine you posted is also quite poorly done. I much prefer the pictures of that ship against the star field. Also you have to understand those are pictures of a 12 inch long model I built that I took with my cell phone under really sub-par lighting. Certainly just a fun experiment. Here's one I think turned out a lot better.


Class_A_Frieghter_1a.jpg


...and even that ain't perfect. All I have is cell phone and a couple desk lamps. I'm slowly trying to gather better and better equipment to take better shots and make better composites, but I, too am teaching myself.

But let's look at my image you posted the detail of:

Class_A_Freighter_Lightspeed.jpg



The lighting is pretty off here. The main light source is the hyperspace tunnel, and the so the brightest light really ought to be on the ship's side, rather than it's top. I could have corrected this by rotating this ship element to face the brightly lit side towards the light source, but I felt it would make the ship look like it was careening through the tunnel at a bizarre and uncomfortable angle. I suppose I could move around the hyperspace to reposition the focus of the tunnel, but this image was pieced together from really just a quarter tube of crumbled aluminum foil and took a lot of work to fill up that specific rectangle, and would have taken even some more work to reformat it all to a totally different position within that rectangle. Frankly, not worth the effort to me for an image that was just a fun experiment done late one night as a lark. Also, again, I feel the edge is SO badly done because of it being too sharp versus the quality of the image it is the edge of. In fact, it was this very image that taught me the principle I was trying to convey to you that a blurry image needs a blurry edge. If I were going to re-composite this Class-A Freighter image (which I'm not going to) I would re-cut it out of its background with the pen tool set to have a 1 pixel feather edge. That would go far in improving it. As would going over some of the even blurrier bits and softening the edges even more by hand, probably with a soft eraser brush set to 20 or 30% opacity.

In case you're curious, here's the image of the model with no doctoring at all. (probably... there are two from the same angle and I forget which I actually used.)

2014_10_12_20_55_58.jpg


Another lesson I learned from this experiment is to photograph against a different background... the black made isolating the image a bit of a pain in the butt. Had I shot this against blue, the whole thing would have looked a lot better.


Lighting is a huge deal and you really have to get it right with the model. Trying to paint it in post facto can be done, but really just to punch it up here and there. Trying to make the light source look like it's coming from the completely other side is no longer compositing. Now you doing a digital painting. Which is cool. That's super fun also. The key is to understand the physical form of what you're "lighting" and also remember that light only goes (for our purposes) in straight lines. Here's the problem of your painted-in light in your composite: The sun is way behind the ship, so really it would be acting more as a rim light, just brightening the edges. Even if you are cheating it over with your artistic licence, it's not behaving as light does. None of your added sunlight should spill onto the bottom of the saucer at all, but it should show up on the nacelles and engineering hull, which it doesn't.

This is part of why the CBS image in your OP fails. The model itself isn't great, but from so far away, we can't really tell that in this image. The problem is 100% in the subtlety of the lighting. Now the strong key light from our upper right is good. And it even matches the shadow on the planet, so our brains are tricked into thinking, "yeah, sunlight!." And then there's a much dimmer fill light probably rigged below and aft of the ship; it has a cooler blue color and we can think, "sure, that's light bouncing off Earth and showing us the under side." Now in real life, being that far away, any reflected light would have far, far less visible impact on a ship like we see here, but most of us have only lived on the surface of Earth and we don't think of what light really does in space, and for artistic reasons, we can let the strong fill light slide. After all, our "ship of a thousand suns" was lit with a TON of fill light back in the 60s. But, to be fair, the net effect of the lighting was that the ship basically seemed to be lit from one side. Here's where CBS dropped the ball: the edge lighting on the saucer (our left hand side of frame) has a bright highlight. And then the starboard warp nacelle also gets an edge highlight, but from another mysterious angle, yet the secondary hull doesn't seem to get much highlight at all. All these weird light sources are where you can see it's not a solid model. It's subtle, and most of us probably can't quite identify why it's wrong, but it is wrong and it throws enough of us off that we say, "psh! What crappy CGI!" Our brains are so used to seeing light do as light does all day long in real life that when we see it misbehaving, it makes us a little crazy. So, that's why lighting angles really matter. And besides all the weird angles, the fact that there are all these magically invisible light sources in space make the thing look that much more fake as well. We see toys on desktops reflect light from every angle. The effect is to subtly cue your brain that you are seeing a very small object, because very large objects, well, look differently. The CBS guys were likely making another artistic decision, hoping to show us all the ship's form and curves, but their method in doing so was unrefined and really, seems not well thought out..

Enough of my wind-bagging. I think taking your challenge could be fun. Post each of the elements you used (the Enterprise, the Earth, and the starfield) and I will try to composite them myself and we can compare results.

To action!

--Alex
 
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Hey Albertese,

That sounds great!
You CLEARLY know your stuff.

Nice model by the way. Love the brown colors instead of the traditional grey.
Do you have lights in the engines or was that photoshop?

I made this steam punk Enterprise a while back (with lights)

theship.jpg


I am very happy you want to take on the challenge Albertese and look forward to what you come up with.

The Enterprise
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x18hd/thelightsofzetarhd0003.jpg

The Earth
http://hdw.eweb4.com/wallpapers/9805/

Space.
(you probably have better star fields of your own)

space.jpg


:)Spockboy
 
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Cool. I'll play around with those soon, maybe even today if I finish my other projects soon enough.

I like your Steam Punk ship. Looks fun. And thanks for the compliments on my Class-A Freighter. Yes it does have practical lights in the engines. But the diffusion of the glow is photoshop trickery.

As for model photography... I just picked up a 1:350 TOS kit. I kinda want to get another one as a practice build and get the lighting kit to make one up that's really perfect. I have a 1:1000 ship already built and I've been meaning to try out some more photography with that, but that probably won't happen right away, either. And it's tougher with a smaller model. That's why I've been jonesing for the 1:350 so bad. So much easier to light a bigger subject.

But I also have a 1:18 scale X-Wing and a 1:48 scale Millennium Falcon on the workbench, plus (today) I'm converting models for playing with the X-Wing Miniatures Game so I got a lot in the queue already.

I look forward to it, though.

--Alex
 
All right, I took a break while some paint was drying and decided to use your elements. Here's what I came up with:

Composite_spockboys_challenge_1.jpg


I did manage to punch up the colors on the Enterprise a bit, and then knock down the colors on the Earth. There was a number of layers involved in doing this, all messing about with opacity and repeated applications of blurs and adding noise. And messing with hue/saturation quite a bit. In the end, I'm pretty happy with the results.

Thoughts?

--Alex
 
All right, I took a break while some paint was drying and decided to use your elements. Here's what I came up with:

Composite_spockboys_challenge_1.jpg


I did manage to punch up the colors on the Enterprise a bit, and then knock down the colors on the Earth. There was a number of layers involved in doing this, all messing about with opacity and repeated applications of blurs and adding noise. And messing with hue/saturation quite a bit. In the end, I'm pretty happy with the results.

Thoughts?

--Alex

Wow. Well you have certainly made it look more modern!
It doesn't look like a 50 year old photo anymore.
I think its a case of apples and oranges here. For me, the color is a little too jacked making the Enterprise green and orange (deflector)
and I prefer the focal length keeping the planet in focus, but you have done a really good job with it. Well done!

For me I guess this might be the ideal (except for the bussard collectors ;))

entearth1.jpg




If you are interested in taking it up a notch and doing some video compositing, I was toying with the idea of posting some HD video of some shots of a Master Replicas Enterprise I took so people could do their own thing.
I would be very curious to see what people came up with. I shot it in front of a blue screen, a green screen and even a red one!
Seen here is the RED SCREEN shot...



Thanks for doing the composite shot.
I think someone in this thread pointed out earlier how futile it is with the materials available to recomposite the original model. Perhaps when it is repainted something can be done.

Meanwhile I still think it would be interesting to do some model shots as there is PLENTY of CGI already available out there ;)
 
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What do you mean "when it is repainted"? There's no way they're going to put that sucker back in front of VFX cameras even again.

As to the depth of field, sas the planets were often "fuzzy pom poms" on the original show, I think it being not in sharp focus looks fine, albeit I agree the colors on the ship are overdriven.
 
What do you mean "when it is repainted"? There's no way they're going to put that sucker back in front of VFX cameras even again.

As to the depth of field, sas the planets were often "fuzzy pom poms" on the original show, I think it being not in sharp focus looks fine, albeit I agree the colors on the ship are overdriven.

Um, I'm referring to photographs which is what we have been compositing in this thread.

Nobody said anything about filming "that sucker" again.

Ideally we could composite modern pictures of the ship but until it is repainted from its current horrific state, seems like a waste of time to use any of the pictures.


20070423-enterprise.jpg
 
Sorry, your MR animation suggested you meant otherwise.

No worries Maurice. I can see why you would think that. :)

I think an 11 foot exact replica (port side finished of course) re-filmed would be extraordinary!
Until I win the lottery however, it seems unlikely ;)

For now it will have to be the M.R version.
Although THIS would be almost as good as an 11 footer.

http://www.customreplicas.com/movie_tos.html

http://www.customreplicas.com/gallery_tos_enterprise.html

:) Spockboy
 
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Well, I did bump up the colors on the ship on purpose, as I felt they were a bit too faded for my taste. Looking at the faded images all the time, I can see why they might look overdone.

And I don't understand the idea of trying to make it seem that the focal length is set to keep the planet sharper than the ship... isn't the ship the subject? Seems weird to me. Did I misunderstand?

Also, I should add that for my money, the Eden FX model there is as bad as the "restoration" to the 11 footer. All that nasty, purposeless random paneling is an eyesore.

And as for video compositing... I'm not sure I have any software that does that. What would you recommend? Recommend me a good free one and a good not-too-expensive one. Your shot there seems well-composited, but you need to play around with the lighting.


--Alex
 
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Eden's nacelle caps there are also terrible.

Hey Maurice do you EVER have anything positive to say? :lol:

You seem to be a Churchill fan, have you heard this one? ...

“A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity, an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.”


;) WINSTON S. CHURCHILL
 
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