Comparing Pike's crews (The Cage / Discovery)

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by StefanM, Jan 23, 2019.

  1. StefanM

    StefanM Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Discovery Season 2 just started and we got a first look at the crew of Pike's Enterprise.
    Our first look at his crew was in "The Cage", playing in the year 2254. Now "DIS: Brothers" shows his crew in the year 2257 - 3 years later.
    In this DIS-Episode, only 4 crewmembers appeared or were mentioned: Pike, Spock, Connolly & Nhan. More will follow (like "Number One").

    So let's compare both versions of his crew, and see, whose story from the cage will continue.

    Pike's Enterprise crew from the cage:
    Captain Christopher Pike - played by Jeffrey Hunter (2254) - still part of the crew, played by Anson Mount (2257)
    Science Officer Lieutenant Spock - played by Leonard Nimoy (2254) - still part of the crew, played by Ethan Peck (2257)
    First Officer "Number One" - played by Majel Barrett [M. Leigh Hudec] (2254) - will be part of the crew (not appeared yet), played by Rebecca Romijn (2257)
    Doctor Philip Boyce - played by John Hoyt (2254) - not appeared yet
    Helmsman Lt. Jose Tyler - played by Peter Duryea (2254) - not appeared yet
    Yeoman J.M. Colt - played by Laurel Goodwin (2254) - not appeared yet
    Transporter Chief (Pitcairn?) - played by Glegg Hoyt (2254) - not appeared yet
    Communications Officer Garison - played by Adam Roarke (2254) - not appeared yet
    Geologist (Fisher?) - played by Ed Madden (2254) - not appeared yet

    New crewmembers from Discovery:
    Chief Engineer Commander Nahn (maybe barzan species) - played by Rachael Ancheril (2257)
    Science Officer Lieutenant Evan Connolly - played by Sean Connolly Affleck (2257); died

    From the "old" crew, "Number One" has been announced to appear (and maybe finally gets a name).
    Dr. Boyd, who was portrayed as a good friend of the Captain (like Kirk/McCoy) should at least be mentioned, maybe he will appear.
    If the Enterprise will really be in action, in would make sense to also show Helmsman Tyler.
    A Yeoman like Colt seems to be unlikely in a TV show in 2019. Whether Discovery, nor he movie-Enterprise has such a "female servant of the captain".
    The other 3 were so minor characters, I don't think, they will reappear.
     
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  2. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I wonder if maybe they'll take a leaf from Star Trek (2009)'s book, and have members of the TOS crew under Pike's command? In 2257, we're just one year (and one or two universes over) from the crew being united on the Enterprise on an ill-fated rescue mission to Vulcan.

    Failing that, maybe they'll have Chief Engineer Olsen and Dr Puri, who's Kelvinverse analogues died to make way for our heroes. Or Helmsman McKenna, complete with healthy lungs.
     
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  3. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Some rank-related musings:

    Now with the rank braid of full Captain, while back in 2254 he had the braid of Lieutenant, FWIW.

    And still at Lieutenant rank, it seems. But Vulcans have more career years to look forward to, so Spock is in no hurry.

    Her original rank was Lieutenant, in braid and dialogue alike. Promotional material now shows her wearing Lieutenant Commander braid.

    As Ed Madden's character is a potential case of people remaining aboard when command of the vessel changes from Pike to Kirk, we might argue that others will do that as well. There's a full decade between "The Cage" and TOS, though. So it would be fun to see people under Pike in 2257-58 who are familiar to us from Kirk's command later on, such as Dr. Piper, but not unexpected if this doesn't happen.

    I guess it's a blessing Madden's character held no specific rank in either appearance...

    Such servants are a feature of the Trek universe, though, and still very much present in the TOS movies. Male or female ought to be the outdated part for today's audiences; the position itself is just part of the rigid military hierarchy that we accept without complaint from every Trek era and milieu.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
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  4. Serveaux

    Serveaux The Wind Premium Member

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    If everyone on the Enterprise bridge aren't white guys and a couple of hot girls this will violate canon and Gene's Vision.
     
  5. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think out of everyone who we don't know if they'll appear, Boyce is the only one where I think they should show. The others, I agree, were too minor. But given the Enterprise just finished a five-year mission and is under repair, maybe Boyce chose this as a point to retire.

    Other than Number One, Pike can have a whole new crew.

    It's been three years since "The Cage", so there might have been turnover among the crew. Where would they transfer? Remote outposts, other ships they made rendezvous with. The Enterprise also had some turnover in TOS. Chekov wasn't onboard yet as of "Mudd's Women" but was apparently there by "Space Seed", just unseen.

    We'll probably finally get Number One's name in her first appearance on DSC. I'm just wondering how. Either in a report, a conversation, or while the Enterprise is in action doing its thing.

    I guess it would make sense to have Tyler. He gets almost as excited as Tilly. No one gets as excited as Tilly.
     
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  6. StefanM

    StefanM Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    He, could - but it wouldn't make much sense. Pike himself explained, they were on a 5-year mission, so they were obviously too far away to really participate in the war. Now it's 2257, so the 5YM may have been between 2251/52 and 2257. "The Cage" was in 2253. Yes, maybe they had crew exchanges, but a 5YM doesn't give so many chances, as they are not coming home and visiting Starfleet facilities very often, so the main part of the crew should stay the same for these 5 years.
    But okay, now that they are back on Vulcan, Starfleet has lost a lot of officers, at least now there should be a good chance to change to another ship (or retire in the Boyce's case). So since Vulcan, there COULD be a new crew. Although this would be a perfect chance to bring back characters like Number One, Boyce, Tyler...
     
  7. USS Excelsior

    USS Excelsior Commodore Commodore

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    It’s also implied that the colourful uniforms are new which would be inconsistent with the Cage.
     
  8. StefanM

    StefanM Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Maybe we should just accept, the uniforms in episodes like "The Cage" and "Where no man has gone before" were just bad quality. Maybe the replicators didn't have enough color ;) And the uniforms of this whole era had the same colors like in the most TOS-Episodes.
    OR: "The Cage" was 3 years before this episode, so in "The Cage", they got the wrong "new uniforms".
     
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  9. Serveaux

    Serveaux The Wind Premium Member

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    Pike said "We got new uniforms." He didn't say "our uniforms before this always looked like yours do now."

    "The Cage" took place some years before STD. If you're looking for consistency, you could say that everyone was wearing the Cage uniforms a few years ago, then switched to what the Discovery crew wear now, and the Enterprise crew has moved to a newer design (since the Cage uniforms are not the same colors or design as the outfits Pike and company wear here).

    The fly in the continuity ointment remains the uniforms and appearance of the ship in the second TOS pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

    Call it a bad data point.
     
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  10. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It would mean Starfleet's uniform production values dipped, skyrocketed and then plummeted again.

    I'm 110% sure the uniforms Pike's crew are wearing in "Brother" are the Disco versions of the TOS costumes, just like the coloured pullovers in ST'09 were.
     
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  11. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    In DSC, the Enterprise crew never had "The Cage" style uniforms. The TNG and DS9 Uniforms overlapped and it's the same situation here. The Enterprise got the new uniforms and other ships, including Discovery later on, didn't.

    "It looked like this, then it looked like that, now it looks like this!" No. The Enterprise uniforms in DSC just look similar-but-different from TOS, any of TOS including "The Cage", period.
     
  12. marlboro

    marlboro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Man, The Cage was a fantastic piece of science fiction.

    I would like to see Pike's Enterprise crew include Boyce, Colt, #1, Benjamin Tuval, and Moves-With-Burning-Grace. Of course, that won't happen, I know.
     
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  13. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    They choose TOS colours for brand recognition.

    Casual fans and non-fans familiar with trek will recognize them at a glance. Closer scrutiny will show that they’re just recoloured DSC uniforms.
     
  14. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Played by Lance Reddick
     
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  15. marlboro

    marlboro Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I am completely out of touch with modern actors so I had to google, but yes, you're right, he'd be perfect.
     
  16. Tim Thomason

    Tim Thomason Commodore Commodore

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    And Mr. Nano, of course. He would fit right in as an unexplained background alien.
     
  17. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Then they take him on an away mission and pyrokinesis!
     
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  18. mr.peany

    mr.peany Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I always forget that about TNG and DS9 and still get oddly confused by it. Generations didn’t help alleviate any of that confusion either haha.
     
  19. Blue Squadron

    Blue Squadron Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Timo’s is a long-ish post so I won’t quote each individual comment re. rank markings but I’m not sure I agree with him. These are my musings:

    At the time of the original pilot that became The Cage, all the officers, regardless of grade were wearing the single gold sleeve bands.

    I’d have to go hunting to find the exact source but my understanding for many years was that this was a conscious creative choice on the part of the humanist Roddenberry, who deliberately wanted to flatten the hierarchy within his futuristic and egalitarian Starfleet. The same was carried over into the second pilot, WNMHGB, where broadly the same costumes were used and all officers wore a single gold cuff bands — the only exception and the only new change being the two gold bands introduced to differentiate the Captain from all the other officers.

    The TOS uniforms did add further detail — and continued to use naval-style sleeve insignia as this was something that the viewers would be familiar with — but even then the system was deliberately changed to make it less military-looking and different than anything that the audience would specifically recognise from 20th Century uniforms: hence the reduced number of stripes overall and the use of wavy pattern lace and broken stripes.

    FWIW, I think the Discoprise uniforms missed an opportunity here: they should have used the TOS-style with broken stripes using spaced rhomboid lozenges rather than the thin stripes adopted in the JJ movies. The JJ versions look too much like contemporary naval insignia. It would also have been nice for the Discoprise uniforms to be different to the JJprise uniforms in that respect.

    Anyway, the main point, however, is that I don’t think the sleeve markings on Pike’s crew in The Cage can be taken as indicative of substantive rank or compared the the insignia that followed.

    Regarding the role of Captain’s Yeoman, I’d very much agree that it’s not the role itself but rather the gender-typing and portrayal that are the issue. A more contemporary take might be that of an administrative officer (of any gender / race / species) rather than the “pretty office secretary” that was seen in the ‘60s but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t exist at all.
     
  20. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    FWIW, Pike was used to having a male Captain's Yeoman, suggesting that sexism would be in the eye of the audience rather than an in-universe feature.

    And yes, most officers in "The Cage" wore the single braid of Lieutenant. And most were called Lieutenant (if anything).

    Not all did; there's the "half braid" of the unnamed guy who gets credited as CPO Garrison. Since half braid means the officer rank of Lieutenant (jg) elsewhere, apparently Garrison was the Communications and Propaganda Officer. Or then his first names were Charlie Patrick O'Malley.

    Just having fun there. But Captain Pike being Lieutenant by rank is fun indeed, especially as we learn he made (Fleet) Captain only later on...

    Timo Saloniemi