"Clues"

[Amaris]

I love this episode. Watched it a few minutes ago, as a matter of fact. I have a question, though. When the crew made the second attempt to cover their tracks, how did they resolve the issue of time disparity between the "30 seconds" of ship time and the 48+ hour difference in time when compared to information updates from a Federation beacon, between what they remember and now? (24 hours for the initial incident, and I'm figuring 24 hours for the second, with a few hours in between while they investigated what was going on).

 

[sonak]

What I don't understand is why the time disparity issue came up in the first place. Why was it so important for them to have been only out for 30 seconds? Why couldn't Data have just said that the crew was unconscious for a day and not have the mystery?

Did it have to do with their supposedly going through the wormhole or something, therefore it was only supposed to be a short distance? Maybe it's really obvious and I am dumb.

 

[Amaris]

I don't get the 30 seconds either. Even a couple of hours would help the credibility of the situation, but 30 seconds? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Sakrysta]

The idea of time distortion was mentioned a couple times during the episode, such as when Riker said they were lucky they didn't end up across the galaxy in the middle of next week. I always assumed that they would have chalked up the difference between the ship's chronometer and official Starfleet time to distortions caused by the wormhole. But for them to have been unconscious much longer than the imaginary 30 seconds would have caused questions, since Data was supposedly unaffected and, as we saw, knew exactly what to do to revive them. Without the complication of a hostile force, 30 seconds must have been the approximate time it would have taken Data to analyze the problem and initiate the solution.

Although the precision of the 30-second response always bothered me a little. I thought Data should have either said something like "32 seconds" or estimated and said "about 30 seconds." After all, the crew spent a couple seconds in semi-consciousness on their way in and out.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I always hated this episode. I even had a thread about it recently. No way they can "get it right," as Picard said, because the things that went wrong were things that happen naturally, over the course of 24 hours like the samples or beards growing. It's not a tight story at all, though it pretends to be.

 

[Snaploud]

I always hated this episode. I even had a thread about it recently. No way they can "get it right," as Picard said, because the things that went wrong were things that happen naturally, over the course of 24 hours like the samples or beards growing. It's not a tight story at all, though it pretends to be.

I don't buy your logic. New samples can always be planted. Beards can be manipulated. Anything that triggered questioning the first time around can always be altered for the second go-around. You don't have to remove every scrap of possible evidence. You just have to remove the things that triggered an investigation the first go-around.

 

[Amaris]

The idea of time distortion was mentioned a couple times during the episode, such as when Riker said they were lucky they didn't end up across the galaxy in the middle of next week. I always assumed that they would have chalked up the difference between the ship's chronometer and official Starfleet time to distortions caused by the wormhole. But for them to have been unconscious much longer than the imaginary 30 seconds would have caused questions, since Data was supposedly unaffected and, as we saw, knew exactly what to do to revive them. Without the complication of a hostile force, 30 seconds must have been the approximate time it would have taken Data to analyze the problem and initiate the solution.

Although the precision of the 30-second response always bothered me a little. I thought Data should have either said something like "32 seconds" or estimated and said "about 30 seconds." After all, the crew spent a couple seconds in semi-consciousness on their way in and out.

Ah, that makes sense. I forgot about the whole time distortion issue (which is sad because I had just watched it when I made the initial post). I do like this episode, and consider it among my top 10. I love a good mystery.

 

[Shatnertage]

The idea of time distortion was mentioned a couple times during the episode, such as when Riker said they were lucky they didn't end up across the galaxy in the middle of next week. I always assumed that they would have chalked up the difference between the ship's chronometer and official Starfleet time to distortions caused by the wormhole. But for them to have been unconscious much longer than the imaginary 30 seconds would have caused questions, since Data was supposedly unaffected and, as we saw, knew exactly what to do to revive them. Without the complication of a hostile force, 30 seconds must have been the approximate time it would have taken Data to analyze the problem and initiate the solution.

Although the precision of the 30-second response always bothered me a little. I thought Data should have either said something like "32 seconds" or estimated and said "about 30 seconds." After all, the crew spent a couple seconds in semi-consciousness on their way in and out.

That's a really good explanation.

This episode is one of my favorites, too.

 

[Sakrysta]

"Clues" is one of the first episodes I ever saw, so I remember it with great fondness. I remember being hugely creeped out by Troi's scene of seeing something else behind her eyes in the mirror. *gleeful shudder*

 

[Mojochi]

I always hated this episode. I even had a thread about it recently. No way they can "get it right," as Picard said, because the things that went wrong were things that happen naturally, over the course of 24 hours like the samples or beards growing. It's not a tight story at all, though it pretends to be.

I don't buy your logic. New samples can always be planted. Beards can be manipulated. Anything that triggered questioning the first time around can always be altered for the second go-around. You don't have to remove every scrap of possible evidence. You just have to remove the things that triggered an investigation the first go-around.

That's the ticket, right there. too many people get obsessed with the notion that they could never perfectly cover their tracks. They don't have to. They need only remove the majority of conditions that brought about suspicion. The average group of people doesn't go around looking for every possible conspiracy, unless instigated by abnormalities

 

[DonIago]

Clearly the average group of people you're talking about doesn't include the people I deal with at work. I'm in somewhat of an IT capacity, and I swear the minute -any- exception occurs, even as they acknowledge it's insignificant, they practically demand I launch a full investigation even if there's absolutely no impact on us.

 

[Willieck]

Work? work?..... Ah yes I remember work (just)

 

[Amaris]

"Clues" is one of the first episodes I ever saw, so I remember it with great fondness. I remember being hugely creeped out by Troi's scene of seeing something else behind her eyes in the mirror. *gleeful shudder*

Agreed. That scene was sufficiently creepy.

 

[Alrik]

Although the precision of the 30-second response always bothered me a little. I thought Data should have either said something like "32 seconds" or estimated and said "about 30 seconds." After all, the crew spent a couple seconds in semi-consciousness on their way in and out.

After following this thread for the last couple of days, ironically Clues just happened to be on last night. With everything that has been pointed out, it allowed me to pick up on a couple of things that I had never noticed before.

After their first trip through the 'wormhole' when Picard asks how long they were out, Data does say "Approximately 30 seconds." However, on the redo, his answer is "30 seconds sir". Which leads to a more interesting observation. Initially Picard is still full of questions and orders that they reverse heading back towards the Class M planet. This time Data suggests that doing so could put the Enterprise at further risk. Riker then suggests that they could send a probe and Date litterally cuts him off saying that it would certainly be sufficient. This leads to one of those Patrick Stewart moments. While giving Data a stare his eyes go from kind of a 'what the hell is up with you?' to an 'oh shit' look in a matter of 2 seconds. He replies with "Make it so. And put out a hazzard advisory to Starfleet."

So now I'm left to wonder after watching this ep for the 'umpteenth' time, was Picard left with at least some knowledge of the repercussions they would face should they go back?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

There is just too much crap like this that you have to rationalize later that keeps me from embracing this episode. Sure, I would love to see a similar written episode, with Data committing treason to protect the crew, but I think they needed to redo the whole script

 

[Amaris]

There is just too much crap like this that you have to rationalize later that keeps me from embracing this episode. Sure, I would love to see a similar written episode, with Data committing treason to protect the crew, but I think they needed to redo the whole script

Eh, I think it worked out just fine. It's easy to point out possible flaws, but that's because we know everything that's going on, and hindsight is 20/20.

 

[eepruls]

After following this thread for the last couple of days, ironically Clues just happened to be on last night. With everything that has been pointed out, it allowed me to pick up on a couple of things that I had never noticed before.

After their first trip through the 'wormhole' when Picard asks how long they were out, Data does say "Approximately 30 seconds." However, on the redo, his answer is "30 seconds sir". Which leads to a more interesting observation. Initially Picard is still full of questions and orders that they reverse heading back towards the Class M planet. This time Data suggests that doing so could put the Enterprise at further risk. Riker then suggests that they could send a probe and Date litterally cuts him off saying that it would certainly be sufficient. This leads to one of those Patrick Stewart moments. While giving Data a stare his eyes go from kind of a 'what the hell is up with you?' to an 'oh shit' look in a matter of 2 seconds. He replies with "Make it so. And put out a hazzard advisory to Starfleet."

So now I'm left to wonder after watching this ep for the 'umpteenth' time, was Picard left with at least some knowledge of the repercussions they would face should they go back?

I always think the same thing at the end of this episode. The first time it happened, Picard wanted to investigate and go back (and there were no 'clues' at that point). They launched a probe and Data modified the results to indicate that it was no longer class M. That later became a 'clue'.

At the end of the episode, Picard doesn't want to go back but they do launch a probe again. Wouldn't they discover that the images of the planet were tampered with, just like the first time? I wish when they were planning to get it right the second time that they mentioned how they would modify the probe so that it returned something that wouldn't become a clue and cause them to start the hunt again. It was the mysterious M class planet that started the entire investigation.

I have always wondered about the time differential between the ship and Starfleet. Wouldn't they all be wondering why Data is saying they were only out for 30 seconds yet Starfleet time is two days ahead? Seems like a major problem with the story.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

After following this thread for the last couple of days, ironically Clues just happened to be on last night. With everything that has been pointed out, it allowed me to pick up on a couple of things that I had never noticed before.

After their first trip through the 'wormhole' when Picard asks how long they were out, Data does say "Approximately 30 seconds." However, on the redo, his answer is "30 seconds sir". Which leads to a more interesting observation. Initially Picard is still full of questions and orders that they reverse heading back towards the Class M planet. This time Data suggests that doing so could put the Enterprise at further risk. Riker then suggests that they could send a probe and Date litterally cuts him off saying that it would certainly be sufficient. This leads to one of those Patrick Stewart moments. While giving Data a stare his eyes go from kind of a 'what the hell is up with you?' to an 'oh shit' look in a matter of 2 seconds. He replies with "Make it so. And put out a hazzard advisory to Starfleet."

So now I'm left to wonder after watching this ep for the 'umpteenth' time, was Picard left with at least some knowledge of the repercussions they would face should they go back?

I always think the same thing at the end of this episode. The first time it happened, Picard wanted to investigate and go back (and there were no 'clues' at that point). They launched a probe and Data modified the results to indicate that it was no longer class M. That later became a 'clue'.

At the end of the episode, Picard doesn't want to go back but they do launch a probe again. Wouldn't they discover that the images of the planet were tampered with, just like the first time? I wish when they were planning to get it right the second time that they mentioned how they would modify the probe so that it returned something that wouldn't become a clue and cause them to start the hunt again. It was the mysterious M class planet that started the entire investigation.

I have always wondered about the time differential between the ship and Starfleet. Wouldn't they all be wondering why Data is saying they were only out for 30 seconds yet Starfleet time is two days ahead? Seems like a major problem with the story.

I agree. There's just too many problems with the story.

 

[Ghrakh]

hmm, well, maybe on the second go-around, Data prepared a better fake image and readings for the probe in advance, one that wouldn't raise suspicions. The alien's biochemical stasis thing (I assume it was a blanket "knockout" system of some kind) turned into a dues ex machina in that it could also remove select memories, and apparently, also remove the effects on Deanna of being taken over. Yet, wouldn't it have stopped Crusher's plants from growing? Was Spot knocked out?

But all that aside, I think this overall was a good episode, because it really centered around the question of the ironclad trust everyone has in Data, and it was unsettling to see him act this way.

 

[Snaploud]

I have always wondered about the time differential between the ship and Starfleet. Wouldn't they all be wondering why Data is saying they were only out for 30 seconds yet Starfleet time is two days ahead? Seems like a major problem with the story.

That was explained with the wormhole time distortion explanation. Regardless, I think all these nit-picks are explained very well in the episode, and they even leave an opening (as pointed out) for Picard to purposely not investigate due to a vague remembrance (should we choose to interpret it that way).