Clear up some rank confusion

[Yeffrey]

Although I know that in TOS especially, the "rank" of Commodore has been mentioned a few times along with the "rank" of Fleet Captain.

I thought Id clear up some confusion; Commodore and Fleet Captain are NOT ranks. Rather they are titles given, much like how Chief Engineer or Chief Medical Officer.

They are given (interchangeably I might add) to a Captain that is in charge of a small task force or fleet, in the absence of a Flag Officer of the Admiral ranks. Picard in "Redemption I and II" shouldve been given the title and been referred to as such when conducting fleet duties.

Actual Admiral ranks are as follows:

Fleet Admiral - used in wartime only. 5 stars insignia
Admiral - 4 stars
Vice Admiral - 3 stars
Rear Admiral upper half - 2 stars
Rear Admiral lower half - 1 star

It should be noted that the bottom two ranks of Rear Admiral are simply referred to as "Rear Admiral"

Now I now everybody out there is about to lash out to me in terms of what Commodore and Fleet Captain and how they are canon as ranks in TOS. I know that the starbase Commodores had a Flag Officer braid on their sleeves.

I am merely pointing out that since Gene Roddenberry modeled Star Trek after the US Navy ranks system, that this is what the actual ranking system is about.

To read more about it click here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_%28United_States%29

As to the canon that everyone considers in the Trek universe, thats up to the individual Trekker. Hell I dont consider Voyager canon at all.

I hope this helps and sheds some light on the subject

 

[Garth Rockett]

I think its pretty clear that Commodore is indeed a rank in TOS. If you'll note from the article, the Commodore rank has existed as the one-star flag officer rank at different points in U.S. Naval history. The rank existed in Starfleet during the time of TOS (and I think it may have even been used in ENT, but I'm not positive) and has apparently been done away with by the time of TNG, much like the rank existed in the U.S. Navy's past but is not used in the present.

But ultimately it doesn't matter what the U.S. Navy's rank system is. Just because Starfleet's was modelled on it doesn't mean it is bound by changes the Navy makes.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Commodore was a rank in ENT and TOS, yes. By TNG's time, they did what the US Navy had done in the early 80's: phased it out, replacing it with Rear Admiral Lower Half.

Fleet Captain? We actually have no idea what that was. I doubt it was an actual rank, though. Probably a temporary title. We've certainly never seen a uniform or insignia for one, and never even heard of it ever again outside of two or three TOS episodes; so I'm prepared to forget it ever happened, just like the 6 or 7 other names tossed about for the Enterprise's operating authority (Space Command, Star Service, Space Central, etc.) which I'm glad beyond measure that they retconned out of existence.

Actually I heard a theory in another thread that 'Fleet Captain' could be a more formalized (and rarely used in practice) form of referring to the Starfleet rank of Captain, i.e. the O-6 Captain that the US Navy has. Probably to distinguish it from an O-3 Captain, such as the MACOs/Starfleet Marines/whatever the heck they're called, might use.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I like the idea of a Fleet Captain being an officer with three solid stripes in TOS.

 

[Timo]

By TNG's time, they did what the US Navy had done in the early 80's: phased it out, replacing it with Rear Admiral Lower Half.

Or, rather, they simply omitted all mention of a one-star Admiral rank after the TOS movies.

Such a rank still possibly exists through inference, since the rank insignia for Admirals include two, three and four pips - why wouldn't one pip exist as well, then? But this is not solid evidence, as there for example doesn't seem to be a line officer rank with three bright pips and one black, even if "aesthetical logic" would dictate one. (This could be the infamous Fleet Captain rank if such a thing existed. But I do insist it doesn't and never did.)

Also, in TNG "Conspiracy", we see how varying numbers of pips may be added to the collar triangle of the first-season flag uniforms. We see zero, one and two pips there. If one and two correspond to two stars and three stars, respectively, then almost every admiral in the first season of TNG was one-star. And since none were called "Commodore", we might assume Starfleet has indeed changed a thing or two from the TOS times. Yet I trust they had the common sense not to call their new rank "Rear Admiral, Lower Half"!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[captcalhoun]

Commodore's exist in the Royal Navy today. One commands (or commanded) one of our aircraft carrier's used to evacuate British citizens from Lebanon during that fracas with Israel recently...

 

[Unicron]

To be fair though, we also have to remember that insignia goofs are fairly common. Ben Finney was a lieutenant commander in "Court Martial," but he wore commander stripes. And Valeris was a lieutenant, but wore a lieutenant commander pin in TUC.

On a strictly personal level, I've always liked the idea of fleet captain being a distinct rank, as fleet admiral is a distinct rank, and that such an officer would command a small task force of ships. Rank insignia would not be an issue, as all of the conjectural insignia I've seen fits in with the established schemes (three solid stripes in TOS, a captain's pin with extra "arrows" in the movies, and five pips in modern Trek).

 

[doubleohfive]

Fleet Captain? We actually have no idea what that was. I doubt it was an actual rank, though. Probably a temporary title. We've certainly never seen a uniform or insignia for one, and never even heard of it ever again outside of two or three TOS episodes; so I'm prepared to forget it ever happened, just like the 6 or 7 other names tossed about for the Enterprise's operating authority (Space Command, Star Service, Space Central, etc.) which I'm glad beyond measure that they retconned out of existence.

I always took "Fleet Captain" to be a title AND rank ... you can get promoted to "Fleet Captain" if that's ALL you'll be doing. Position-wise, it always struck me as "Basically an admiral, but still a captain" -- i.e. commanding a fleet in some sector while at the same time having your own station/ship to command. Had there been a fleet contingent assigned to DS9 on a regular basis beyond the Defiant, Sisko could have been a Fleet Captain, even in position name only.

Similarly, when Picard led the Starfleet ships to spring the tachyon net in "Redemption, Part 2" he would have been performing the same function, just as he did when he assumed command of Starfleet's battle group during the opening of Star Trek: First Contact.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Commodore's exist in the Royal Navy today. One commands (or commanded) one of our aircraft carrier's used to evacuate British citizens from Lebanon during that fracas with Israel recently...

Yes, Commodore in the Royal Navy is equivalent to a US Rear Admiral (Lower Half), and to a British Army Brigadier or RAF Air Commodore.