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Citizens against government spending.

KJbushway

Commodore
Have you ever seen that commercial that takes place in a future chinese classroom?
I just find some problems with their arguements, I also have a hunch that these are republicans. Why, well did you ever see these commercials during Bush's term?
They attacked the Stimulus.
They attacked Healthcare.
Everything put forward by Obama within his first year of presidency.
I don't think they really have any ground.
The stimulus is for the most part paid back.
30% went to Americans.
And it safed us from a depression worst that of Black Friday.
Sometimes you have to spend money in order to make money, and in this case, thats exactly what happened.
Is anybody on Trekbbs a participant of this group?
 
Yeah, I saw that commercial the other day. It's very stupid on many levels.
The website says they're non-partisan. I say that's bullshit.
 
Have you ever seen that commercial that takes place in a future chinese classroom?

My eyes roll just at the sound of that. Let me guess, the tone of the discourse suggested the United States had ceased to exist due to Obama.

They attacked the Stimulus.

Which is odd because most of the stimulus was spent on tax breaks. Which are both a standard GOP tactic, and also fairly lousy stimulants as it turns out.

They attacked Healthcare.

Also odd, since Obamacare shares 90% of its ideas with Romneycare in MASS, and what Bob Dole proposed 15 years ago when trying to unseat Bill Clinton.

I don't think they really have any ground.

Since when do you need to fair to launch attacks in Washington?

The stimulus is for the most part paid back.
Not only that, but due to the global economic crisis, any debt the US accrued was free money. By that, I mean the rates on a lot of the T-bill issues were lower than the long term inflation rate. That means, assuming the money was spent wisely (a large part wasn't, due to largely ineffective tax cuts based on largely discredited Austrian School supply side dogma) the US government could have received back more in new receipts (like if a new highway allows the development of a new industrial park, the tenants of which pay taxes, essentially turning the highway into an investment) than it was paying out in interest, effectively earning a profit.

30% went to Americans.
And the foreigners that bought the debt, specifically the Chinese, will lose money from the T-bills they bought. How is that? Treasuries were paying out a little north of 2%, inflation in China is somewhere around 10%, meaning their money is losing 8% a year in real terms. Their best option would have been to spend it immediately. Saving erodes value for them as their money is depreciating in value faster than a lot of the goods they could have purchased.

And it safed us from a depression worst that of Black Friday.

You lost me there. We weren't at risk of a depression. That hysterical blather from politicians and people who don't understand economics. What stimulus did was save us from 11.5-12% unemployment instead of the 10-10.5 we got. However, we could have done quite a bit better than that.

We also largely avoided crippling deflation, which encourages people to hold on to money too much, which hurts retail, costing small business owners and clerks alike their jobs, which causes bank closings, which causes further deflation (banks are as big of a factor in the money supply as the government is, arguable moreso). That's essentially the opposite of the aforementioned Chinese over-inflation problem.
 
Yeah the black friday was a bit much. But the basic thing is that they are attacking ideas that aren't a big deal. The healthcare debate is because republicans bashed it, and their supporters are attacking what they clearly don't understand. While the main reason is becuase Republican and tea baggers are against anything with Obama's name on it.
 
But isn't it true that first Bush, and then especially Obama, have run up the national debt to an extraordinary degree, and that as a result we are becoming a debtor nation to other nations, especially China?

I'm not so much defending the ad as I am suggesting that there's probably at least some grain of truth in it.
 
I've seen this commercial. I've wondered how the Asian actors feel about being used to incite fear and hatred toward Asians.
 
I've seen this commercial. I've wondered how the Asian actors feel about being used to incite fear and hatred toward Asians.

I get your point completely. Not that I'm a representative viewer of the commercial, but when I saw it, my reaction wasn't anti-Asian it all. It was, "I wonder if there's any truth to the message that we're becoming a big-time debtor nation, with China being the primary beneficiary."
 
I've seen this commercial. I've wondered how the Asian actors feel about being used to incite fear and hatred toward Asians.

I get your point completely. Not that I'm a representative viewer of the commercial, but when I saw it, my reaction wasn't anti-Asian it all. It was, "I wonder if there's any truth to the message that we're becoming a big-time debtor nation, with China being the primary beneficiary."

My BS detector was on when it first popped up, so my first thought was "Which cold war GOP plank decided this bullshit commercial was a good idea?" :lol:
 
WARNING: WALL OF TEXT
Forgive me if there's a few errors in here, it was a lot to write at once and I only skimmed over it once.

that as a result we are becoming a debtor nation to other nations, especially China?

So what? Seriously. Terms like debtor and creditor nation are fairly unimportant economic distinctions. It also tends to be a distorting term, as it's often implied that creditor nations are somehow better off, or that debtor nations are profligate. Neither are necessarily true, and in fact excessive lending demonstrates an economy that's out of whack just as much is too much borrowing. Too much savings means too little money is being spent locally, which is a problem because every dollar you spend has a multiplier effect as that dollar is used to pay someone's wage, that person in turn uses the money to buy goods, which supports another worker, etc. A truely balanced economy doesn't export too much, import too much, borrow or lend too much.

However, that kind of analysis is far beyond the level of general understanding here and in the public at large (no offense to anyone, if you're economically literate, you're an exception and I welcome your input). To boil it down to the real issue at hand, you have to understand that borrowing and lending can be mutually beneficial. Buying T-Bills gives the Chinese a safe investment to park money in. Yes, even though I stated they're losing money in real terms, it's still better than pouring money into an overheating local industry and losing money in non-adjusted terms (meaning you lost money before inflation was even taken into account).

The US, on the other hand, has been given free money in which to invest. Most corporations would kill for the kind of low interest rate the US has received in the last 3 years. The problem, the real problem, is that this free money was pissed away on tax cuts, the DoD and entitlement spending.

I don't want to mince words here, the US was on the receiving end of the biggest windfall in modern history. Trillions of dollars flowed into the United States from every country in the world. Trillions. If this money had been spent on revitalizing the aging Interstate, universal broadband, education initiatives, R&D grants, it would have been the foundation for incredible growth for the next 20 years. The US would have used its position as the center of the financial world to cheaply finance a strong foundation for remaining the center of the financial world.

Think about it, what could you do with a loan with only 2.3% fixed rate interest? What kind of house could you afford with that kind of rate? What kind of business could you build with that low of a yield? Debt, used wisely, is phenomenally great. You can build a Fortune 500 company with debt.

Hell, the United States could have taken that Chinese money, turned it around and bought Chinese debt (they have about $US3 trillion of it themselves (compared to their $US4.5B economy) and received 2-3 times as much in interest as they were paying out.

But, and here's where you should get angry, we didn't invest the money. It was used to fund tax cuts on the wealthy and on homeowners. Neither of which has contributed much, if anything, to the national wellbeing. Tax rates at the height of the bubble were lower than they were at any other point in the previous 50 years. They're even lower now, and for every dollar of borrowed money used to finance the recession tax cuts (including the Bush cuts) the US might have got back 10 cents in tax revenue, meaning only a third contributed to domestic growth.

Where did the rest go? Well, if you were a billionaire, would you invest your money in A) The US, where you'll break even if you buy into the S&P 500. B) Buy shares in a Chinese company and earn 10-15% returns. That's right, money borrowed from China to fund tax breaks was sent right back overseas to help fund their growth. Again, the Chinese are kinda getting a raw deal, but this money isn't really helping the bulk of the US population either.

Some the windfall was blown in the bloated Defense department. I'm not anti-defense, I'm not even saying I'm anti-war, but if you're spending $700 billion a year, and our soldiers are still going into battle without needed armor, management of the DoD is seriously FUBAR. "It's war and things happen" is not an excuse. No corporate board would accept that. No taxpayer should either. The DoD's books are so screwed up, CBO can't even audit them, which is in direct violation of federal law.

Finally, the big monster is Medicare and Medicaid, behemoths that grew at twice the rate of the rest of the economy. The trillion dollar, non-offset Part D expansion/senior-bribe was the single biggest contributor, but there's a lot of fundamental problems that go beyond that. This is such a big mess, that it really deserves its own thread. However, here's the crux of the issue: Successful healthcare reform is the same thing as budgetary reform, as you can't do one without the other

What about social security? Nothing. If the rest of the budget wasn't screwed up, it would be natural and acceptable for the SSA to have periods of deficits, to balance out the decades of surpluses. It really doesn't have a structural problem. It's also a very good stimulus since seniors don't sock away SS checks, they go out and spend it.

Yeah just as much as China owns us, we own them.

This statement shows a basic misunderstanding of basic finance, I'm afraid. That misunderstanding is the difference between owning a bond and owning a share of stock. The latter is ownership, a piece of the company. The former entitles you solely to an interest payment. It is NOT ownership.
 
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I haven't seen this comercial so I can't comment on it. I will say that China is creeping up quickly as the new dominant super power in the world. We have been a debtor nation for quite sometime now. If you think that the National government doesen't spend too much, then that's great, I will respectfully disagree. China is a real threat, why do you think they teach Mandarin Chineese in high Schools now? Do I think they will take over the country, no.

The questions over the health care bill should not be about "death pannels" that don't exist or whatever crazy thing the Republicans came up with. I do think there is a real question over the individual mandate which is playing out in the courts right now. This is a question over Congress forcing people to buy a product and some States are claiming nullification which could become a real problem.

So, do the Republicans come up with a lot of bull shit, yeah, do they have ligit questions, yeah they do. What people have to do is filter out the bull shit.
 
We have been a debtor nation for quite sometime now.

Again, having debt is irrelevant. Only what you use that debt for is. The only cost to debt is tax money that will be spent later on interest, and if you can stimulate the economy to grow faster than the 2.5% interest rate, you're sorta turning a profit. That's a simplification, but if you want a fuller story (which is still really watered down), read the wall'o'text two posts above.
 
Yeah I am not a financial student. I have only had math money managment, which is the only math relating to this. My we own them was my simplified view of an economic scale that I have little but growing understanding of. I learned more just reading STR's long post above.
Which didn't have any problems.
 
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