Cavit > Why only Lt. Cmdr?
- Thread starter Tino
- Start date
I'm not sure, but if I'm not mistaken, when Commander Sisko served aboard the Saratoga at Wolf 359, he was only a Lt. Commander as well.
The first officer of the Sutherland in TNG was only a Lt. Commander, IIRC. I believe that William Riker was also the same rank when he was first officer of the Hood before being assigned to the Enterprise-D, and according to his rank pins Chakotay was also a Lt. Commander, but it was never said in dialogue.
And of course, wasn't Spock also a Lt. Commander in TOS?
So technically, Riker is the only 'main cast' first officer in the Federation Starfleet to have the rank of full Commander!
And of course, wasn't Spock also a Lt. Commander in TOS?
So technically, Riker is the only 'main cast' first officer in the Federation Starfleet to have the rank of full Commander!
Lt Commander and Commander are ranks.
First Officer is a position.
First Officer is a position.
Good Will Riker
Admiral
Most first officers in Starfleet have the rank of lieutenant commanders.
Commanders are usually head of starbases or heads of an entire facility (i.e. Starfleet Medical)
Riker held the rank of commander, because he was the first officer of the Federation flagship. A special privilege.
Commanders are usually head of starbases or heads of an entire facility (i.e. Starfleet Medical)
Riker held the rank of commander, because he was the first officer of the Federation flagship. A special privilege.
I would think much of it has to do with how much experience the first officer has. Riker seemed to have a lot of experience, what with already being first officer of the Hood, and even being offered several commands.
The other first officers shown, such as Cavit and Sisko (as flash back to Saratoga days) probably had less experience. Probably they were on their first stint as First Officer.
Although Spock had been called Lt. Commander in dialogue (I remember it in Tomorrow is Yesterday), he wore the braid of full commander, so there is a goof somewhere.
In TMP, when Decker is made first officer, he is reduced to commander, not lt. commander, so it seems to me that first officers of the commander rank is not unusual.
It could also be that the larger the ship (i.e. greater responsibility) the higher of rank they need the first officer to be.
The other first officers shown, such as Cavit and Sisko (as flash back to Saratoga days) probably had less experience. Probably they were on their first stint as First Officer.
Although Spock had been called Lt. Commander in dialogue (I remember it in Tomorrow is Yesterday), he wore the braid of full commander, so there is a goof somewhere.
In TMP, when Decker is made first officer, he is reduced to commander, not lt. commander, so it seems to me that first officers of the commander rank is not unusual.
It could also be that the larger the ship (i.e. greater responsibility) the higher of rank they need the first officer to be.
^
Sisko was on his second "stint" as a first officer when he was on the Saratoga - his first was on the Okinawa under Captain (later Admiral) Leyton (as established in 'Homefront / Paradise Lost').
And Kirk reduced Decker by one rank - captain to commander. To bump him down to a lieutenant commander would have been abusive.
Sisko was on his second "stint" as a first officer when he was on the Saratoga - his first was on the Okinawa under Captain (later Admiral) Leyton (as established in 'Homefront / Paradise Lost').
And Kirk reduced Decker by one rank - captain to commander. To bump him down to a lieutenant commander would have been abusive.
I think on smaller vessels you wouldn't necessarily need someone of the rank of Commander. If i'm not mistaken in the modern American Navy you often see Lt. Commanders serving as first officers on smaller ships.
Bumping him down AT ALL was abusive. There was absolutely no reason to demote Decker - he was a Captain and should have stayed one. If pay-scale was an issue (pay? in the 23rd century Starfleet?) then a step down in pay-scale would have been sufficient - not a reduction in rank. Remember it was his POSITION that changed - not necessarily his RANK.
By the same token, when Kirk assumed the captain's chair he reduced himself in rank by two steps - from Rear Admiral to Captain. This was similarly unnecessary (and also a little ridiculous). Quite why it was done at all still mystifies me...
Because the writers didn't want an Admiral Kirk, they wanted the old Captain Kirk, and had to invent some sort of a pseudo-rationale to cover for the fact that Kirk should have higher rank in a movie taking place perhaps ten years after his television days?
AFAIK, Sisko is the only Commander to have headed a starbase. Perhaps Deep Space Stations are less important than full Starbases...
Most bases have had a flag officer in command - a Commodore in TOS, an Admiral up to Vice Admiral rank in TNG era shows. Starbase 74 did have one Commander Quinteros on board to meet Captain Picard and his ship, but nothing was established about Quinteros commanding the base. More probably, he merely commanded the MRO team that was to upgrade the Enterprise. He would have been eminently qualified, having taken part in designing that ship.
Which may be quite comparable to a big starship. Have we ever heard of a starship CMO of lower than LtCmdr rank? (Lt(jg) Elizabeth Lense of the Lexington probably wasn't a CMO but just a humble staff physician serving under some Commander.)
Timo Saloniemi
AFAIK, Sisko is the only Commander to have headed a starbase. Perhaps Deep Space Stations are less important than full Starbases...
Most bases have had a flag officer in command - a Commodore in TOS, an Admiral up to Vice Admiral rank in TNG era shows. Starbase 74 did have one Commander Quinteros on board to meet Captain Picard and his ship, but nothing was established about Quinteros commanding the base. More probably, he merely commanded the MRO team that was to upgrade the Enterprise. He would have been eminently qualified, having taken part in designing that ship.
Which may be quite comparable to a big starship. Have we ever heard of a starship CMO of lower than LtCmdr rank? (Lt(jg) Elizabeth Lense of the Lexington probably wasn't a CMO but just a humble staff physician serving under some Commander.)
Timo Saloniemi
Actually starbase heads are usually commodores (in the TOS era) or admirals (in the TNG era). Plenty of first officers have been full commanders.
And the whole "flagship" thing about the Enterprise is an honorary designation at best. It doesn't really make sense at all -- a flagship is the commanding vessel of a fleet on a combined operation, or the vessel on which the commanding admiral of an entire navy carries his flag. Neither of those applied to the E, except in rare cases like "Redemption Part 2" where it actually was the command vessel of a joint operation. So there's no reason why the meaningless title of "flagship" should make any difference to the rank of a first officer.
It's as Year of Hell said -- first officer is a position, not a rank. We've seen lieutenant commanders and even lieutenants serve as acting first officers. For that matter, we've seen commanders and lt. commanders serve as captains of ships (captain as a position as opposed to captain as a rank). The captain of a ship is the commanding officer and the first officer is the deputy commander. Rank has little to do with it.
As for Spock, in most of the first season he was referred to as a lieutenant commander despite wearing commander's stripes, but by the second season he was consistently being referred to as a full commander.
Timo, as you may also recall, in TMP, COMMANDER Branch commanded Epsilon 9, which would support the commanders command starbase theory.
I agree, bumping Kirk down to Captain in TMP was ridiculous. FOrtunately, they wised up by TWOK. At least, when he went down to Capt. in TVH, there was suitable reason to rationalize it.
I agree, bumping Kirk down to Captain in TMP was ridiculous. FOrtunately, they wised up by TWOK. At least, when he went down to Capt. in TVH, there was suitable reason to rationalize it.
AFAIK, Branch was a lieutenant commander.
As for Cavit? Meh. As has been pointed out, many - if not most - XOs in the real US Navy have that rank. Whether the captain is an actual Captain by rank (on a large vessel, like a missile submarine or aircraft carrier) or a Commander (attack subs and other not-quite-so-big ships) it's natural for the XO to be a LCDR.
Nah, what bugged me about Cavit was his muleheaded distinction to go running across the bridge right when it was being attacked, an action which got him killed...
I'm guessing his rank of Lt. Commander was due to his blatant disregard for orders
People,
Well, the answer to the original question is simple. First officer is indeed a position, and can and has been filled by officers of ranks ranging from as low as lieutenant, junior grade (Worf was Riker's first officer in "Peak Performance" aboard the Hathaway) to full commander (Riker to Picard and Spock to Kirk).
Also, since Voyager was a smaller ship, having Cavit as a lt. cmdr. makes perfect sense. It may have been his first posting as a first officer. Maybe he had just been promoted from lieutenant, and may have been a second officer aboard another smaller ship or station.
Someone here also mentioned a chief medical officer being a lt., j.g. Don't forget Dr. Bashir was a full lieutenant when he took over as CMO at DSN.
Anther fictional example of a lt. cmdr serving as XO was Denzel Washington serving under Gene Hackman on the U.S.S. Alabama in "Crimson Tide." And in "The Caine Mutiny," Capt. Queeg was in rank a lt. cmdr. as c.o. of the Caine, while his X.O. was a lt.
Red Ranger
Well, the answer to the original question is simple. First officer is indeed a position, and can and has been filled by officers of ranks ranging from as low as lieutenant, junior grade (Worf was Riker's first officer in "Peak Performance" aboard the Hathaway) to full commander (Riker to Picard and Spock to Kirk).
Also, since Voyager was a smaller ship, having Cavit as a lt. cmdr. makes perfect sense. It may have been his first posting as a first officer. Maybe he had just been promoted from lieutenant, and may have been a second officer aboard another smaller ship or station.
Someone here also mentioned a chief medical officer being a lt., j.g. Don't forget Dr. Bashir was a full lieutenant when he took over as CMO at DSN.
Anther fictional example of a lt. cmdr serving as XO was Denzel Washington serving under Gene Hackman on the U.S.S. Alabama in "Crimson Tide." And in "The Caine Mutiny," Capt. Queeg was in rank a lt. cmdr. as c.o. of the Caine, while his X.O. was a lt.
Red Ranger
No, actually, he wasn't. Bashir was a Lt. JG for awhile even after he became DS9's CMO. It wasn't until the 4th season that he made full lieutenant.
As for other fictional examples: The captain in "Das Boot" was a Kapitanleutnant, or Captain Lieutenant (which is, technically, the equivalent of a US Navy Lieutenant, but is more along the lines of a LCDR in practice).
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