Cause and Effect - why didn't they...

[Timo]

The big problem here is in the concept of the time loop, not in our heroes' treatment of it. The loop must be nearly unavoidable by definition, or else it would not exist.

1) If the loop depends on this super-accurate collision with a fellow starship, then it must follow that the collision is going to happen no matter what course the E-D takes, although perhaps within certain limits. If changes in course were relevant, then the random fluctuations of the loop would preclude the collision most of the time, and there could be no loop. Somehow, the E-D must be a disaster magnet, causing the Bozeman to pop out of the past at the exact millisecond and location that will result in a collision, regardless of where the E-D herself is and when. Although, I guess, still within the Typhon Expanse... (But the ship isn't allowed to leave the Expanse - her orders are to study it. And if it eats starships, then all the more reason to poke around and make the area secure for further visitors!)

2) If our heroes knew the above, they should not worry about course changes, but they should worry about ways to survive an unavoidable collision. And this is indeed the conclusion they reach in the discussion. However, the heroes in each of the loops, even the final one, are unaware that there is going to be a super-accurate collision with a fellow starship. All they know in the very final loop is that they are going to die in a collision with something, perhaps an unavoidably large object or entity. That's in some ways even less reason to think that changing the course will change the future - but in other ways, it gives hope, as the concept of a "safe course" might still theoretically exist. The episode as written makes good sense if the heroes assume the collision will be with a small object, though, even if they never voice this sentiment.

3) The heroes don't even know when disaster is going to strike. Today? Tomorrow? Three years from now, as per the mysterious "signs of three"? Stopping to worry, to launch probes, or otherwise prevaricate, is unthinkable in those circumstances; Starfleet officers can't afford to be paralyzed like that. And luckily the episode doesn't feature them immediately springing to rash action; rather, it has the disaster visit them again before there is time to decide between action and inaction.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tiberius]

I get what you're saying, Timo, but the episode does not say in any way that changing course would not avoid the collision. All they say in the episode is:

PICARD
If you're right about this...
perhaps we could escape the loop
by avoiding the collision...

GEORDI
That's our guess.

WORF
Maybe we should reverse course.

RIKER
For all we know, reversing course
might be what leads us into the
crash.

Picard thinks a moment, then shakes his head.

PICARD
We can't afford to start
second-guessing ourselves. We'll
stay on our present course until
we have reason to change it.
(beat)
In the meantime, let's do
everything we can to avoid a
collision.

They just somehow assume that changing course will do nothing. No explanation is giving for this decision. We can come up with fanwank explanations after the fact, but it doesn't matter. Our speculation isn't canon, and there's no logical reason why they shouldn't at least TRY. After all, what's the worst that could happen if it fails? They'll crash and get stuck in a repeating timeloop?

 

[R. Star]

I just always wonder if Morgan Bateson's ship was like the movie Down Periscope.

 

[Squiggy]

can't wait to see a post-Nem reappearance of Captain Morgan Bateson of the U.S.S. Bozeman (Kelsey Grammer).

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

They just somehow assume that changing course will do nothing. No explanation is giving for this decision.

Maybe it was because Worf suggested it and they never listen to Worf.

 

[Captain Ransom]

In "Time Squared", the heroes know there's a disaster waiting for them somewhere ahead, and there, too...

These are a couple of my favorite TNG episodes - "Time Squared" and "Cause and Effect" (along with "Clues" and "Conundrum," among others).

Evacuate all non essential personal to the saucer and separate the ship, have the saucer trail behind behind the stardrive section. This way the quicker stardrive section could deal with what was ahead of them and thus protect the saucer. Also it would be more unlikely for both vehicles to be destroyed.

Unless they thought this was predestination paradox then separating the ship would not have been something they would have normally done during the first pass when the problem began.

Or, we end up with "When the Bough Breaks... A Tragic Tale"

If the worst were to happen, how would you explain to all the starfleet parents that you just send one section (lets say the one with all the day-care units) to its doom? =O

Probably not. And perhaps what saved the ship was not the opening of the shuttlebay, but the avoidance of tractor beam use?

That is, perhaps connecting the two ships with a tractor beam was what placed the E-D on the path for collision in the first place...

You made me think of a question.

By connecting the two ships with a tractor beam, did they allow for the Enterprise to experience the same repeating time loop that the Bozeman was caught in - and in the final "run-through" when they make it out, would they have died if they hadn't been successful, since they weren't connected by tractor beam?

Separate the dam ship! LOL

Actually, the saucer likely would have fared better. It was the damage to the warp nacelle that turned a severe impact into a catastrophe. Even if the saucer could not avoid impact, it is very possible the collision could have been survivable.

Now, whether this would still have triggered a time loop is another question. If it did, would time reset for the entire Enterprise, or just the saucer section? Then would they have ended up with two saucer sections, with living crew on both? Or maybe it would recreate the stardrive, with the original still flying out in space. Argh... this is starting to hurt my brain. :-(

It could be like a combination of this episode with the repeating time loop and the Voyager episode where the crew and the ship are duplicated - we could end up with dozens of spare saucer sections and starfleet personnel !

Stop where the ship's at, launch a few probes or remote controlled shuttles, and just wait and see. That's the first thought that went through my head. Besides, they know at what point the echoes started, just back up in a straight line till the echoes go away and the slowly swing wide around your old course or just sit and wait and see.

I got the feeling they were all morbidly curious to see what would happen if they just kept going. (Like I would have been >_>)

I just always wonder if Morgan Bateson's ship was like the movie Down Periscope.

Hahaha! I love this! I have to tell my boyfriend about this comment!

They just somehow assume that changing course will do nothing. No explanation is giving for this decision.

Maybe it was because Worf suggested it and they never listen to Worf.

That's true!

 

[Timo]

By connecting the two ships with a tractor beam, did they allow for the Enterprise to experience the same repeating time loop that the Bozeman was caught in - and in the final "run-through" when they make it out, would they have died if they hadn't been successful, since they weren't connected by tractor beam?

But why should the Bozeman be in a time loop? We never got any indication that this ship would have been re-experiencing any events. All she ever did was emerge from the past to the late 24th century, at an unfortunate moment when there was a time-looping starship there right in front of them. The Bozeman would really only need to do that once.

Cool idea anyway!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Captain Ransom]

By connecting the two ships with a tractor beam, did they allow for the Enterprise to experience the same repeating time loop that the Bozeman was caught in - and in the final "run-through" when they make it out, would they have died if they hadn't been successful, since they weren't connected by tractor beam?

But why should the Bozeman be in a time loop? We never got any indication that this ship would have been re-experiencing any events. All she ever did was emerge from the past to the late 24th century, at an unfortunate moment when there was a time-looping starship there right in front of them. The Bozeman would really only need to do that once.

Cool idea anyway!

Timo Saloniemi

My original assumption must be wrong. For some reason, until just now, I always assumed the Bozeman was "stuck" sort of... "hovering?" in its own repeating time-loop outside of normal space, and could only have emerged with the aid of outside influence.

Think "Night Terrors." I'm not confusing it with that- and I only know I'm not confusing it with it because I know the episode (Night Terrors) much too well, having watched it dozens of times (because the scene in sick bay is soo deliciously creepy, and because it is one of the few TNG episodes I own). My original thinking was just similar to the situation in Night Terrors - with the two ships aiding one another to escape the anomaly, and escape not being possible without two ships.

I think the main reason I thought the Bozeman was in its own time-loop was because the timing seemed to be much too convenient - that the Bozeman would emerge just at the same moment the Enterprise was passing directly in front of its flight path.

With the universe being so (supposedly) huge, one would think this event to be a bit more unlikely - but then... Janeway did run into the one other Federation ship in the Delta Quadrant, and also just happened to find the missile B'Elanna launched without permission as a Maquis, not to mention finding the Hadrosaurs still alive, well and much more evolved. But I digress... >_>

Thank you so much for explaining that!

 

[Timo]

I'm rather convinced the writers didn't think of it in those terms, if at all. But I personally think it works fine in a couple of alternate ways:

1) The loop consists of the E-D fumbling around in the Typhon Expanse, and at some point hitting a zone that sucks in another starship from the past (also within the Expanse but not necessarily in the same spot) and spits it exactly at the E-D; the collision causes an explosion that resets things. In that version, the Bozeman does experience a loop, but it only lasts for a couple of seconds from their point of view, leaving them no chance to even observe that something might be amiss. And the E-D is a "disaster magnet" that tickles Typhon the exact right way to create perfect collisions every time.

2) The loop consists of the E-D always going to the same spot of the Typhon Expanse where the local "natural feature" is a starship that has just arrived from the past. They collide with it and are flung a few days to the past, but the Bozeman really isn't; it has always been destined to emerge from the past at that time and in that spot, and only ever does it once (but it's an "once" that our heroes live multiple times). In that version, the E-D just happens to hit the "sweet spot" of collision-inducing space-time coordinates, perhaps because Starfleet regulations describe a standard way to maneuver within Typhon and to react to things off the starboard bow - so even if the E-D is a few minutes early or late or too much to port or up, the conn officer automatically adjusts the ship back to a specified "safe studying position" with respect to the mysterious phenomenon. And that "safe" position is the one that will cause the collision.

There are no doubt other ways to introduce a "mechanism" that ensures collision despite the massive odds against it.

Still loving the tractor beam idea, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[picsiskvinechef]

One thing I don't get is why nobody is leaving their post as Picard orders the crew to abandon ship. But then they died soon after that, so no court martial from Starfleet.

 

[Squiggy]

One thing I don't get is why nobody is leaving their post as Picard orders the crew to abandon ship.

Because the ship blew up as he was ordering the crew to abandon ship.

 

[R. Star]

I would've liked it if they did change course in one of the loops and they still ended up running into the anomaly. Kinda like a fish hook that's already caught you, even if you can move around still before you get reeled in.

 

[Mojochi]

1) The loop consists of the E-D fumbling around in the Typhon Expanse, and at some point hitting a zone that sucks in another starship from the past (also within the Expanse but not necessarily in the same spot) and spits it exactly at the E-D; the collision causes an explosion that resets things. In that version, the Bozeman does experience a loop, but it only lasts for a couple of seconds from their point of view, leaving them no chance to even observe that something might be amiss. And the E-D is a "disaster magnet" that tickles Typhon the exact right way to create perfect collisions every time.

I've always just assumed it was this. Not sure why. It just seems like the course of events will always lead back to the collision which resets the loop, & the phenomenon exists in both times, similar to the anomaly in All Good Things... I suppose there'd be more credence to it were there to have been a scene where the crew, knowing their fate, tried some wild ideas to avoid it. So little to go on

It really is a small temporal window they are working in. Late night poker game, sleep, morning briefing, boom. What... maybe 10 hours? the majority of which everyone is asleep

I would've liked it if they did change course in one of the loops and they still ended up running into the anomaly. Kinda like a fish hook that's already caught you, even if you can move around still before you get reeled in.

Right