Can a Shuttle tow a Starship? Effects of mass in a vacuum

[Crewman47]

I was just thinking about this and know very little about it but like the small Tugs that we have today that can tow massive Liners across the water (?), where these tugs are realtivley the size of a shuttle copmpared to a Starship I was wondering if it was possible to tow a Starship using a Shuttle even if the ship was running with minimum power and engines at thrusters only?

I think we have seen Tugs in Star Trek particulary the battle scenes in DS9 but I think these Tugs were like 2 or 3 times the size of a shuttle but I think it'd be intersting to see if a shuttle could just as well do the same job and if there would be a size limit on what it could pull, like, say, a Dominion Battlecruiser sized ship?

 

[Rarewolf]

Runabout could tow the Cardassians in DS9 Emissary

One problem I have with Nemesis. Could of used the Enterprise E's shuttles to tow the Enterprise. Or the shuttles transporter systems.

 

[ancient]

I was just thinking about this and know very little about it but like the small Tugs that we have today that can tow massive Liners across the water (?), where these tugs are realtivley the size of a shuttle copmpared to a Starship I was wondering if it was possible to tow a Starship using a Shuttle even if the ship was running with minimum power and engines at thrusters only?

I think we have seen Tugs in Star Trek particulary the battle scenes in DS9 but I think these Tugs were like 2 or 3 times the size of a shuttle but I think it'd be intersting to see if a shuttle could just as well do the same job and if there would be a size limit on what it could pull, like, say, a Dominion Battlecruiser sized ship?

In space there is no friction at all, so ANY force, no matter how small, will move any mass, no matter how large.

The acceleration will be very tiny, but over time, even the smallest force can get a huge object moving fast.

 

[Crewman47]

/\ I was thinking that myself. I only ask because I'm pretty sure there's many times when using a Shuttle in this manner could have helped out in certain situations but for some reason were never considered either because of writer error or something else.

 

[Christopher]

It would be physically doable, but it might not be practical if time is a factor.

Still, the potential of shuttles for solving various problems does tend to be overlooked in Trek. Main computer is down/infected? Use a shuttle's computer. Ship's transporters are down? Use a shuttle's transporter. Communications are down? Use a shuttle's transceiver array. Need to deal with a potentially infectious alien organism or explosive device without endangering the ship? Take a shuttle out and beam it aboard there. (Well, TNG did do this once, in "Unnatural Selection," but later on, particularly on VGR, we routinely had engineers working on dangerous devices just a couple of meters away from the warp core.)

 

[Timo]

It has to be acknowledged, though, that usually the factors causing transporter or computer problems would readily extend to any "portable" units aboard the ship, too. Energy-based lifeforms readily leap across physical gulfs or through firewalls, and the 24th century computer viruses probably have enough skill to commandeer a wireless connection and thus invade physically isolated units.

It is annoying, though, that the shows fail to make use of a "workshop" or "laboratory" set where our heroes could do their dangerous experiments...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Forbin]

...but later on, particularly on VGR, we routinely had engineers working on dangerous devices just a couple of meters away from the warp core.)

I was particularly amused by a TNG ep that had Geordi and Data testing a phaser rifle by firing it at an energy trap that was directly aligned with the warp core.

Shirly they could have whipped together a firing range set.

 

[Deks]

The tractor beam most likely acts as an energy beam (which it is) to not only tow the larger ship but also lower it's mass.
Now couple this with the fact that subspace fields can lower the mass of an object significantly ... the Runabout most likely did that with the Cardassian Galore class ship and amplified the field through Cardassian systems (given the fact the vessel was not entirely disabled).

 

[SeerSGB]

...but later on, particularly on VGR, we routinely had engineers working on dangerous devices just a couple of meters away from the warp core.)

I was particularly amused by a TNG ep that had Geordi and Data testing a phaser rifle by firing it at an energy trap that was directly aligned with the warp core.

Shirly they could have whipped together a firing range set.

Really even needed all that much to do it, just a table and a target (like they had in the engineering set) and put it on a empty holodeck or a cargobay--- hell even the shuttlebay.

Still, the potential of shuttles for solving various problems does tend to be overlooked in Trek. Main computer is down/infected? Use a shuttle's computer. Ship's transporters are down? Use a shuttle's transporter. Communications are down? Use a shuttle's transceiver array. Need to deal with a potentially infectious alien organism or explosive device without endangering the ship? Take a shuttle out and beam it aboard there. (Well, TNG did do this once, in "Unnatural Selection," but later on, particularly on VGR, we routinely had engineers working on dangerous devices just a couple of meters away from the warp core.)

Alwasy been one of my issues with 'Trek. In order from some of the stories to work, the "best crew in the fleet" has to be either incredibly cocky, place way to much faith in tech that has failed in the past, or incredibly stupid.

 

[Dayton3]

In real life, a shuttle wouldn't so much as budge a starship.

Unless the starship lowered its mass with a warp field, it would be unmovable by a shuttle.

A shuttle slaps a tractor beam on a starship and fires up its impulse engines.

The shuttle would move toward the starship. Not vice versa.

As any astronaut will tell you, in space even in microgravity, objects still have mass. Mass doesn't disappear in microgravity.

 

[ancient]

You seem to be forgetting the shuttle's engines. They need only latch onto the ship with the tractor, then fire up the engines. The tractor beam would act only as a cable, not a winch.

They wouldn't want to pull themselves together, regardless of who moves! Also, if they did do that for some reason, the ship would move too, just not too much. M1*d1=M2*d2 So if the ship is 1000 times bigger than the shuttle and they start out 1001 feet apart, the shuttle will move 1000 feet, the ship will move 1 foot.

 

[Timo]

It has to be acknowledged, though, that oftentimes the tractor beam does work much like a winch. Or a hydraulic crane, really, capable of moving the target closer, farther, or sideways.

And sometimes it does seem that the tractor beam negates at least part of the Newtonian rules applying to the situation. It's not just an equivalent of a physical connection between the two objects: it allows the capturing party to damp out some of the forces created by the captured party.

Aaanyway. Even if a shuttlecraft is a tiny thing, we should not forget that it is capable of immense feats of propulsion by itself. That silly little cabin can move between planets in a matter of hours at most. It wouldn't be impossible to think that it can also haul a large starship at a very respectable acceleration, just not the multi-thousand-gee acceleration that the ships (and shuttles?) themselves can pull off.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Deks]

Shuttles in the late 24th century come equipped with a deflector dish and are warp capable.
Projecting a large enough subspace field to encompass a star ship can be done with some effort ... and it makes it that much easier if the ship in question can amplify the field.
And as Timo already mentioned they do have pretty powerful engines, and since any force would be enough to move a very heavy object through space, I think the shuttle's engines would be more than enough (even at impulse).

Runabouts on the other hand are not shuttles.
They are larger and apparently more powerful (have a longer range).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The tractor beam most likely acts as an energy beam (which it is) to not only tow the larger ship but also lower it's mass.

I've always thought of tractor beams as a kind of coherent graviton beam; sort of the gravitational equivalent of a laser beam. Action and reaction would still apply, you'd just have to compensate with your engines for the push-back you get from whatever you're pushing/pulling. This, of course, forces your engines to to double duty: you have to apply power to the tractor beam AND you have to run your engines to make up for the mass of whatever it is you're towing. We saw this in The Corbomite Maneuver where Enterprise literally out-muscled Balok's pilot ship, which was obviously technically superior but not quite powerful enough to overcome Enterprise's full engine power AND keep it held in the tractor beam at the same time.

Shuttles in the late 24th century come equipped with a deflector dish and are warp capable.
Projecting a large enough subspace field to encompass a star ship can be done with some effort ... and it makes it that much easier if the ship in question can amplify the field.

As demonstrated in Deep Space Nine, if you can generate a subspace field of any kind, you can move your ship alot faster than you could with a tractor beam.

Again, if Tractor Beams constitute a coherent gravition beam, then extending the subspace field is unnecessary: the towed vessel will be accelerated in a particular direction by gravitational attraction. All YOU have to worry about is keeping the gravitational force uniform and keeping enough power to the tractor beam and engines simultaneously so you don't loose whatever it is you're towing.

 

[Christopher]

^^But gravity is an extremely weak force, and a large body still possesses considerable inertia. A subspace field to reduce the mass of the tractored object would make it easier for a coherent graviton beam to accelerate.

 

[Timo]

We don't know that gravity would be a weak force. Sure, it's weak when small masses (say, mere planets) are causing it. But the way artificial gravity is set up in Star Trek, by flooding the vicinity with "gravitons" (whatever they are), may result in a considerable attractive (and apparently optionally repulsive) force at rather low expenses or complexity. It only makes sense to speak of gravity as a weak force when an X-sized lump of it causes less force than an X-sized lump of elemental charges such as electrons - but this is far from given, in the Trek setup.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ancient]

^^But gravity is an extremely weak force, and a large body still possesses considerable inertia. A subspace field to reduce the mass of the tractored object would make it easier for a coherent graviton beam to accelerate.

I RL you'd be right. However, deck plates thoughout a ship provide 'artificial gravity' supposedly though graviton manipulation, and they can provide 1 g (and much higher, if IAMD is any indication).

 

[ancient]

It has to be acknowledged, though, that oftentimes the tractor beam does work much like a winch. Or a hydraulic crane, really, capable of moving the target closer, farther, or sideways.

But in this case we're more talking about something like the ENT-D towing the Stargazer, or the TOS ENT towing the Botany Bay, or the runabout towing the Cardie ship. The winch-like tractor only comes into play when you want to pull a shuttle closer, and ultimately inside the ship.

And sometimes it does seem that the tractor beam negates at least part of the Newtonian rules applying to the situation. It's not just an equivalent of a physical connection between the two objects: it allows the capturing party to damp out some of the forces created by the captured party.

I don't recall any on-screen evidence of this. When did this seem to be the case?

Aaanyway. Even if a shuttlecraft is a tiny thing, we should not forget that it is capable of immense feats of propulsion by itself. That silly little cabin can move between planets in a matter of hours at most. It wouldn't be impossible to think that it can also haul a large starship at a very respectable acceleration, just not the multi-thousand-gee acceleration that the ships (and shuttles?) themselves can pull off.

Yeah, they are pretty robust little devils.

 

[Jimmy_C]

Maybe the tractor beam isn't made of gravitons, but a transporter beam that carries particles which decay into gravitons. Then you could simply the project beam at the ship and allow the particles to decay into gravitons, distorting the space-time around the ship. Since the beam is carrying particles instead of people/objects, then it could be set to reintegrate whenever it impacts an object.

 

[Silversmok3]

Can a shuttle tow a starship?

Why, yes it can.
Get strong enough chains and it could tow a planet. Just don't expect said planet to move very much anytime soon.As stated above air resistance and friction dont matter in a vacuum, so as long as the shuttle maintains its own energy it could move anything it wishes.

Including a starship.

If I were to guess why its not a common manouver, its probably due to the fact that whatever incapacitated the starship enough to need a tow will ruin any shuttlecraft that attepts a rescue.