Blood Oath

[Admiral Pike]

I just saw Blood Oath, an episode that contains some serious moral shades of gray, or better yet, shades of black.

And I have to say if the episode was supposed to make me feel conflicting emotions, it certainly succeeded.

At first I wanted Jadzia to prove herself to the legendary TOS klingons---and moreover old friends of Curzon. Then I found the episode pretty enjoyable with some dramatic moments, tension, friendship, and lots of action on the planet.

And then, at the end when she's back at the station, she glances first at Ben and then at Kira... and when I see Kira's look, it finally hits me: Jadzia has just partaken in a massacre, and not only that but she's the one who made sure it happened.

Then it's like a polar reversal takes place, and I start to feel repulsed instead. Jadzia just killed a number of people and enabled the killing of dozens of more people. Jadzia is nothing less than a mass murderer, and for no other reason than to impress her friends and get a revenge. So you kill 40 people just so you can avenge 1 killed person? At this point my thoughts are that Jadzia is no better than Hitlers holocaust minions, or the butcher of Gallitep. I feel repulsed and sickened by the whole thing. And what's even more, I cheered for her throughout the process, which makes me also feel disgusted with myself.

So with that, some thoughts creep into my mind, that I hope you, my fellow trek fans, can provide some answers to:

How many people did Jadzia personally kill?
As far as I could see she herself killed at least 5-10 people, but I'm not entirely sure.

How many deaths are she directly responsible for though her actions?
Just the ones slain by her own weapon? Or all 40 of them that she actively made sure that the klingons could exterminate, though her sophisticated plans, schemes and diversions?

In your opinion, was it really worth it?

And finally, do you think she thinks it was worth it to become a mass murderer just so she could avange a single person and impress her friends?

 

[Admiral Pike]

Okay people, I added a poll to the thread.

 

[Jono]

Depends on whose view you take it from. From a Klingon view there is nothing unlawful about revenge killings. Federation on the other hand would consider it murder.

Jadzia or rather Curzon pretty much considered himself a Klingon, so that probably helped justify it for Jadzia at the start. I really can't remember the episode to gage her reaction in the end but wanting to kill someone and then living with your actions are very different things. No doubt to ease her mind she would say that she did it to rid the galaxy of a heinous murderer and that her assistance made it possible for at least Kor to survive. If she didn't get involved they would have just charged into the barrels of the Albino's guards' disruptors and died within 2 seconds.

As for Kira, she can be a bit of a hypocrite at times. She spent half her life going around murdering people.

If I were to compare it to someone in universe I'd compare Jadzia's actions to that of Silaran Prin, though he was physically injured and not just mentally and emotionally as Curzon Dax was. I don't think you can compare something as heinous as the Holocaust to Jadzia's action/role in this particular episode.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I just saw Blood Oath, an episode that contains some serious moral shades of gray, or better yet, shades of black.

And I have to say if the episode was supposed to make me feel conflicting emotions, it certainly succeeded.

At first I wanted Jadzia to prove herself to the legendary TOS klingons---and moreover old friends of Curzon. Then I found the episode pretty enjoyable with some dramatic moments, tension, friendship, and lots of action on the planet.

And then, at the end when she's back at the station, she glances first at Ben and then at Kira... and when I see Kira's look, it finally hits me: Jadzia has just partaken in a massacre, and not only that but she's the one who made sure it happened.

Then it's like a polar reversal takes place, and I start to feel repulsed instead. Jadzia just killed a number of people and enabled the killing of dozens of more people. Jadzia is nothing less than a mass murderer, and for no other reason than to impress her friends and get a revenge. So you kill 40 people just so you can avenge 1 killed person? At this point my thoughts are that Jadzia is no better than Hitlers holocaust minions, or the butcher of Gallitep. I feel repulsed and sickened by the whole thing. And what's even more, I cheered for her throughout the process, which makes me also feel disgusted with myself.

So with that, some thoughts creep into my mind, that I hope you, my fellow trek fans, can provide some answers to:

How many people did Jadzia personally kill?
As far as I could see she herself killed at least 5-10 people, but I'm not entirely sure.

How many deaths are she directly responsible for though her actions?
Just the ones slain by her own weapon? Or all 40 of them that she actively made sure that the klingons could exterminate, though her sophisticated plans, schemes and diversions?

In your opinion, was it really worth it?

And finally, do you think she thinks it was worth it to become a mass murderer just so she could avange a single person and impress her friends?

My thinking here, if you will excuse my boldness, is that it is good for us to ask these questions and think carefully over our responses to violence in fiction. Violence should always be handled with delicacy and care. However, most fictional heroes commit mass murder, to be honest. What fantasy hero hasn't slaughtered his or her way through crowds of guards or enlisted men? Personally it annoys me, given how casually young men are dismissed as "legitimate targets" in real life. However, if I may, I feel you are too harsh on yourself, on the character of Jadzia, and on the fictional Gallitep overseers and the real people they were based on. Forgive me if I seem to be lecturing, as it is certainly not my intent to lecture anyone, but "disgust" strikes me as a response that is never useful when directed against people, if at all. Ever watch "Babylon Five"? If so, I think considering the Minbari race might help.

Also, Dax was considered an honoury Klingon. The issue at hand here may be "how accepting should we- or the Federation- be of Klingon culture?" This of course opens another massive can of worms...

Under Klingon philosophies, the guards at the Albino's home were enemies to be killed. Dax fought in the Dominion War, and murdered many Jem'Hadar and Cardassians, justifying it as a necessity of war. I imagine the audience did too. There is not really much of a difference between the scenarios, when we consider she is fighting in "Blood Oath" as a Klingon. Putting aside the further troubling issue of whether there should be any distinction between soldiers and any other victims of violence at all, Dax's actions here are, from a Klingon perspective, simply part of the reality of battle. Again, what we think of Klingon philosophy is a different matter, perhaps...

(PS: I didn't vote in the poll).

 

[Praetor]

"Klingon justice is a unique point of view, Mr. President."

 

[MarauderMo]

I think she did the right thing for her. It may not have been the starfleet thing to do, but I doubt Worf would have done any different.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

Thousands of people have been killed by Kirk, Picard, Sisko, et al, and not always in a legitimate war. The Albino was a notorious criminal who hired guards to protect him from violent reprisals. The guards are fair game. Surely if the Albino murdered three children even under Federation law he would be a criminal who must be brought to justice. When Star Fleet police showed up at his door there would be a fight and people would die. The Klingons just have a different brand of law enforcement.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Thousands of people have been killed by Kirk, Picard, Sisko, et al, and not always in a legitimate war. The Albino was a notorious criminal who hired guards to protect him from violent reprisals. The guards are fair game.

I would be very wary of referring to any sentient being as "fair game". That's very controversial...I also find it troubling that arbitary distinctions are made about "legitimacy" of violence and the targets of violence (see my earlier post).

Surely if the Albino murdered three children even under Federation law he would be a criminal who must be brought to justice. When Star Fleet police showed up at his door there would be a fight and people would die. The Klingons just have a different brand of law enforcement.

You're right about this, though. Not that I believe in "justice", but, yes, the Federation would respond to murders of its citizens and the Albino would fight, so the Federation would have to disarm his guards if they wanted to get to him. Klingon law enforcement is different, it simply permanently disarms anyone in the way.

 

[The Boy Who Cried Worf]

Thousands of people have been killed by Kirk, Picard, Sisko, et al, and not always in a legitimate war. The Albino was a notorious criminal who hired guards to protect him from violent reprisals. The guards are fair game.

I would be very wary of referring to any sentient being as "fair game". That's very controversial...I also find it troubling that arbitary distinctions are made about "legitimacy" of violence and the targets of violence (see my earlier post).


It might be troubling, but I don't think it is very controversial. Pretty much every culture has a a list of life forms you are allowed to kill and times when you are allowed to kill them. That list changes from person to person, and group to group, but it is almost always there.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

I just saw Blood Oath, an episode that contains some serious moral shades of gray, or better yet, shades of black.

And I have to say if the episode was supposed to make me feel conflicting emotions, it certainly succeeded.

At first I wanted Jadzia to prove herself to the legendary TOS klingons---and moreover old friends of Curzon. Then I found the episode pretty enjoyable with some dramatic moments, tension, friendship, and lots of action on the planet.

And then, at the end when she's back at the station, she glances first at Ben and then at Kira... and when I see Kira's look, it finally hits me: Jadzia has just partaken in a massacre, and not only that but she's the one who made sure it happened.

Then it's like a polar reversal takes place, and I start to feel repulsed instead. Jadzia just killed a number of people and enabled the killing of dozens of more people. Jadzia is nothing less than a mass murderer, and for no other reason than to impress her friends and get a revenge. So you kill 40 people just so you can avenge 1 killed person? At this point my thoughts are that Jadzia is no better than Hitlers holocaust minions, or the butcher of Gallitep. I feel repulsed and sickened by the whole thing. And what's even more, I cheered for her throughout the process, which makes me also feel disgusted with myself.

So with that, some thoughts creep into my mind, that I hope you, my fellow trek fans, can provide some answers to:

How many people did Jadzia personally kill?
As far as I could see she herself killed at least 5-10 people, but I'm not entirely sure.

How many deaths are she directly responsible for though her actions?
Just the ones slain by her own weapon? Or all 40 of them that she actively made sure that the klingons could exterminate, though her sophisticated plans, schemes and diversions?

In your opinion, was it really worth it?

And finally, do you think she thinks it was worth it to become a mass murderer just so she could avange a single person and impress her friends?

My thinking here, if you will excuse my boldness, is that it is good for us to ask these questions and think carefully over our responses to violence in fiction. Violence should always be handled with delicacy and care. However, most fictional heroes commit mass murder, to be honest. What fantasy hero hasn't slaughtered his or her way through crowds of guards or enlisted men? Personally it annoys me, given how casually young men are dismissed as "legitimate targets" in real life. However, if I may, I feel you are too harsh on yourself, on the character of Jadzia, and on the fictional Gallitep overseers and the real people they were based on. Forgive me if I seem to be lecturing, as it is certainly not my intent to lecture anyone, but "disgust" strikes me as a response that is never useful when directed against people, if at all. Ever watch "Babylon Five"? If so, I think considering the Minbari race might help.

Also, Dax was considered an honoury Klingon. The issue at hand here may be "how accepting should we- or the Federation- be of Klingon culture?" This of course opens another massive can of worms...

Under Klingon philosophies, the guards at the Albino's home were enemies to be killed. Dax fought in the Dominion War, and murdered many Jem'Hadar and Cardassians, justifying it as a necessity of war. I imagine the audience did too. There is not really much of a difference between the scenarios, when we consider she is fighting in "Blood Oath" as a Klingon. Putting aside the further troubling issue of whether there should be any distinction between soldiers and any other victims of violence at all, Dax's actions here are, from a Klingon perspective, simply part of the reality of battle. Again, what we think of Klingon philosophy is a different matter, perhaps...

(PS: I didn't vote in the poll).

To me, there is a huge difference between killing people who are actively trying to kill you and attacking your home in a time of war vs. going out and fulfilling a private vendetta.

 

[Marie1]

I honestly don't remember this episode at all! How did I miss all this? o.O

Wow. (Trying to read up on it on Wiki).

I will say I agree with Jon Stewart- Hitler worked very hard to build his reputation, so I try to avoid comparing people with him (unless they kill over 6 million people due to their race?)

I don't agree with Jadzia's choice to help as it wasn't her oath- it was Curzon's, and as established, she isn't responsible for the actions of a previous host, so how can she be tied to their vows?

OTOT, a Pirate, "the Albino retaliated by infecting each of their firstborn sons with a deadly virus." (Wiki) -so he was pretty twisted and not some innocent guy person, and I doubt his soldiers were oblivious either.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I doubt his soldiers were oblivious either

Seeing as most soldiers throughout history have been young men conditioned from birth with the understanding that their greatest task in life is to suffer and die for other people with no concept of their own self-importance, I would be very weary of judging or dismissing any soldier.

 

[Londoner]

Depends on whose view you take it from. From a Klingon view there is nothing unlawful about revenge killings. Federation on the other hand would consider it murder.

Obviously not, Dax gets off with a bit of the evil eye from Sisko - and they talk about justice going soft now!

 

[Marie1]

I doubt his soldiers were oblivious either

Seeing as most soldiers throughout history have been young men conditioned from birth with the understanding that their greatest task in life is to suffer and die for other people with no concept of their own self-importance, I would be very weary of judging or dismissing any soldier.

I don't know... I don't think soldiers are completely free of any responsibility. You can only say "I was following orders" to a point.

I'm not wary of bringing up that point after hearing so many cases of soldiers run amok. Some German soldiers did stand up against the Nazis. Some died, some succeeded in protecting people.

Some soldiers may be young, and many may be taught to protect, to follow, "a greater good" but that only goes so far. If you're told, I'm mad about this guy I don't like, so let's poison his kid as a personal vendetta? Umm... no. And if the soldier knows the commander, was in the initial battle? There's even less of an excuse.

And we aren't talking about human history and humans- we're talking about Klingons. They can contest their leader by challenging them.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

I doubt his soldiers were oblivious either

Seeing as most soldiers throughout history have been young men conditioned from birth with the understanding that their greatest task in life is to suffer and die for other people with no concept of their own self-importance, I would be very weary of judging or dismissing any soldier.

I don't know... I don't think soldiers are completely free of any responsibility. You can only say "I was following orders" to a point.

I'm not wary of bringing up that point after hearing so many cases of soldiers run amok. Some German soldiers did stand up against the Nazis. Some died, some succeeded in protecting people.

Some soldiers may be young, and many may be taught to protect, to follow, "a greater good" but that only goes so far. If you're told, I'm mad about this guy I don't like, so let's poison his kid as a personal vendetta? Umm... no. And if the soldier knows the commander, was in the initial battle? There's even less of an excuse.

And we aren't talking about human history and humans- we're talking about Klingons. They can contest their leader by challenging them.

I apologise if this is getting off topic, but I imagine the ""I was only following orders" is not a valid excuse" idea was thought up by those who had never been in the situation where the choice was obey or be shot yourself. Asking soldiers to stand up to brutal military justice by dying means they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. As I said, the idea that young men are conditioned to put their own lives at the bottom of their list of concerns is very troubling. I make a point of never judging soldiers raised in a culture that expects its young men (or, in theory, anyone)to be soldiers, or conditions them to accept a self-understanding in line with a duty to military service. Otherwise, in my view, they are caught between their own people who care nothing for them as people, and outsiders who disdain or hate them. I apologise again if these seems like a rant, but I believe the soldiers and guards surrounding a high-profile figure should never be summarily dismissed, in life or in fiction.

As I wrote in my first post, though, you're right. "Blood Oath" takes a Klingon perspective on things. From the Klingon viewpoint, anyone in your way and offering resistance should be mowed down- and should probably thank you for it!

 

[ATW]

I think there is one major problem with this thread. The OP is looking at Jadzia's situation as a human and not from the Klingon view, which was by all accounts done in the correct manor.

Due to this I have no problem with what Jadzia did (although some may say she's not a Klingon but that a meh for me )

 

[Anthony Sabre]

Good thread and question. I've often asked myself the same question when watching this episode.

The problem I have with what she did was that there were no consequences. Yes Koloth and Kang died as a result of the siege but that's not what I mean. I mean, how does a Starfleet officer just waltz back into their job after something like that? Did Sisko just not ask any questions and look the other way? Perhaps the Trill don't share the same moral compass that humans do but surely Starfleet in general would frown on this sort of behavior. Court martial for conduct unbecoming an officer at least, murder at worst.

I'd have felt more at peace with it if Sisko at least put a reprimand in her file or something.

 

[MeanJoePhaser]

Was she even on duty when she did it?

Whose to say what's a crime that happens outside of the Federation while on leave?

Sisko went on escapades in the mirror universe, not that he wanted to...he got it on with the counterparts of Dax and Kira, two people under his command in his universe...ain't that creepy? Who's gonna reprimand him?

And of course, there's Worf. I QUIT TO FIGHT IN CIVIL WAR, BUT I IMPRESSED PICARD WITH MY DISPLAY HUMAN ETHICS AND HE LET ME BACK IN AT MY FULL RANK!

 

[nx1701g]

Was she even on duty when she did it?

Didn't Sisko say in the episode that he wouldn't approve her request for leave?

 

[neogothboy74]

I haven't read the whole thread (I'm pressed for time) but if you liked "Blood Oath", you might want to check out the book "Star Trek Excelsior: Forged in Fire" by Michael A. Martin & Andy Mangels, as it tells the backstory for this episode. Great book! Plus in case anyone randomly didn't know, Kor / Kang / Koloth are all Classic Trek Klingons (from "Errand of Mercy", "The Trouble with Tribbles" & "Day of the Dove"). :-0)