Berman a rather clever guy?

[Joker]

Hello,

I've been browsing the development/production details of the episodes of TNG located on the Memory Alpha wiki, and it seems to me that the universally hated and derided Rick Berman is actually no less clever and talented than the rest of the writers of TNG.

Without spending hours individually referencing half of the series via links to various pages, a lot of the input that is cited from various books such as the Companion and so on made all sorts of sense to me, and is spoken like someone who actually knows what he's talking about.

I'm sure he's made some less-than-brilliant decisions for his productions of Trek, but being a mere human being like the rest of us, I can't begrudge him an occassional error or ten in his two decades of almost constant and probably exhausting franchise production.

Does anyone else hold Mr. Berman in a similar regard, or am I just a crazy person?

 

[Anwar]

Berman was just the scapegoat for the fans who needed someone to blame about the stuff they didn't like. Since guys like Ira Behr and Ron Moore usually pointed the finger at him, he got the brunt of it while the ones REALLY responsible (Berman's higher-ups at Paramount and UPN) got away scott-free since they never really got involved or let themselves really be known by anyone involved in Trek.

 

[Navaros]

I don't know if Berman was talented or not, but he was certainly a hindrance & damaging influence to the Trek franchise starting with TNG, due to him insisting on following GR's 'no conflict' rule, and also due to insisting on no/very limited serialization in Trek shows.

I'm sure he's made some less-than-brilliant decisions for his productions of Trek

The problem is that, those less-than-brilliant decisions, which I have mentioned above, handicapped every single episode of Trek under his watch, most epecially with TNG, VOY, and ENT, though not so much DS9 because Berman wasn't watching it as closely, thankfully, and also because Behr fought him over points that were harming the story integrity due to the aformentioned very bad decisions by Berman.

I don't hate Berman on a personal level, but it would have been better for the franchise if another person was in charge of Trek instead, that way there might have been 3 good modern Trek shows instead of just one. Alternatively, it would have been better if Berman simply realized that GR's rules were insane story-killers and drama-killers and therefore flushed them down the toilet where they belong, instead of obeying them.

 

[Anwar]

Berman wasn't the one against serialization in shows, that came directly from Paramount higher-ups themselves and from UPN. Berman just gets the blame since he was the scapegoat, even by Behr.

 

[RyuRoots]

Berman wasn't the one against serialization in shows, that came directly from Paramount higher-ups themselves and from UPN. Berman just gets the blame since he was the scapegoat, even by Behr.

I sometimes wonder how big your tinfoil hat is.

• Ira Steven Behr and Ronald D. Moore were the writers most involved with the creation and development of the Dominion War. Rick Berman wanted the war to be over within three or four episodes at the most. Behr and Moore knew the series would never be able to wrap up the war in that many episodes. Berman also criticized the "depressing" and "violent" stories. Moore later said "It's a fuckin' war! What do you mean it's too violent?!" [1]

Straight from Memory Alpha.

Edit: The War is just an easy example since it ended up being a 2-year arc.

 

[Xerxes1979]

Moore is insane. Any one who saw the last season of BSG would have to come to the same conclusion.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Someone had to actually get the show made every week, and the Great Bird wasn't gonna do it.

 

[Kirk1980]

Yeah, I don't care for Moore. Give me Trek any day of the week and twice on Sunday over Galactica.

 

[Anwar]

Berman wasn't the one against serialization in shows, that came directly from Paramount higher-ups themselves and from UPN. Berman just gets the blame since he was the scapegoat, even by Behr.

I sometimes wonder how big your tinfoil hat is.

• Ira Steven Behr and Ronald D. Moore were the writers most involved with the creation and development of the Dominion War. Rick Berman wanted the war to be over within three or four episodes at the most. Behr and Moore knew the series would never be able to wrap up the war in that many episodes. Berman also criticized the "depressing" and "violent" stories. Moore later said "It's a fuckin' war! What do you mean it's too violent?!" [1]

Straight from Memory Alpha.

Edit: The War is just an easy example since it ended up being a 2-year arc.

And has anyone bothered to check with Berman as to whether or not that order he gave was his own or from Paramount itself? Or is everyone just so used to him being the scapegoat they just eat up everything Moore and Behr feed them, when neither of them bothered to see if Berman was being directly ordered to do stuff either?

 

[Marten]

Berman was most certianly the first guy the bosses at Paramount talked to, of course others from above would have come via him.

 

[Withers]

I don't hate Berman on a personal level, but it would have been better for the franchise if another person was in charge of Trek instead, that way there might have been 3 good modern Trek shows instead of just one. Alternatively, it would have been better if Berman simply realized that GR's rules were insane story-killers and drama-killers and therefore flushed them down the toilet where they belong, instead of obeying them.

This.

-Withers-​

 

[ALF]

I'll tell you what: he's better at producing Trek than I am.

 

[Mytran]

I don't hate Berman on a personal level, but it would have been better for the franchise if another person was in charge of Trek instead, that way there might have been 3 good modern Trek shows instead of just one. Alternatively, it would have been better if Berman simply realized that GR's rules were insane story-killers and drama-killers and therefore flushed them down the toilet where they belong, instead of obeying them.

This.

Quite. Something people seem to forget is that Roddenberry was not solely responsible for TOS in any way shape or form. For instance, what about the other Gene?

 

[Amaris222222]

Yeah, I don't care for Moore. Give me Trek any day of the week and twice on Sunday over Galactica.

You and me both.

I loved BSG (the new version) up until the end of the 3rd season and into the 4th. The show became so absurd, warped as it was by "teh (artificial) dramaz", that I stopped watching it.

I am now revisiting DS9 instead. Much more satisfying.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Berman wasn't the one against serialization in shows, that came directly from Paramount higher-ups themselves and from UPN. Berman just gets the blame since he was the scapegoat, even by Behr.

I sometimes wonder how big your tinfoil hat is.

My guess is his tinfoil hat is STILL smaller than yours.

TNG and DS9 were sold in syndication. In order to better sell a series (ie, make more money), it's easiest to have a show without a continuous story because in syndication, the episode order is usually messed up and not always followed. Hence the higher ups telling Berman to keep things more serialized as more money is to be made that way in syndication, moreso in the past when TNG was in its prime than later on.

But you knew that.

 

[Trekker4747]

I think Berman did a lot to make Trek vanilla, he wasn't big on "intrusive music", he wanted it as walpaper, considering his heavier involvment with TNG and Voyager I think some of the non-serialization of those shows had to be him since DS9 was farily serialized without Berman's influence. And I'm not entirely sure the guy is "clever" in terms of story telling.

Pretty much, I think he's just a stereotypical HW producer, he wants to make "a product" and get it out there and not much more than that. And he kept putting "a product out there" until its sales dropped off then he retired the product (granted he was forced into retring it.)

What I mean by that is that he wasn't all-that great at injecting newness, freshness and interesting stuff into Trek. He just "made a product." And with some aspects of TNG's last few seasons, all of Voyager and most of Enterprise that product was just vanilla and bland. Hits of sparks here and there, but no risks were taken to make the shows cutting-edge or great or to even stand out.

It was just product.

I credit the guy for keeping the franchise running for so long, but he should've had less creative involvment in the shows and let the story writers, directors and such do that and he just managed the books and money flow.

And his faith in Braga?

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Hits of sparks here and there, but no risks were taken to make the shows cutting-edge or great or to even stand out.

What's considered "cutting-edge" for a late 80's early 90's space opera?

Does something have to be "cutting-edge" to bring in the viewers and maintain popularity in the way TNG seems to have been portrayed when it was on the air?

 

[indolover]

His work on TNG and DS9 were good.

I don't think he can take the whole blame for Voyager being an average show (it had the potential to be an excellent show, like TNG and DS9). All executive producers/writers must take the blame IMO. From season 4 onwards Voyager was essentially the Seven of Nine and Doctor show, so in part Berman should have insisted on more balanced character development.

 

[Anji]

Berman a clever guy? Yep, because he's got all of you convinced that the Star Trek he produced was good.

 

[Joker]

I liked quite a bit of it, as do many others here.

Tell me... what's wrong with that?