Before Dishonor?

[Allyn Gibson]

Christopher said:
To be fair to Arnold and Roddenberry, at that time, the concept of assimilation wasn't integral to the Borg yet. "Q Who" suggested that drones were incubated from an embryonic stage as drones and never had any other identity. BoBW showed Picard getting assimilated, but presented it as a change in Borg tactics. It was consistently stated that the Borg assimilated civilizations and technologies, with no interest in individuals. Even after Vendetta, in "I, Borg," Geordi was able to stand by safely while the Borg returned to retrieve Hugh, because the Borg weren't interested in individuals as a rule. The concept of assimilation as a normative process didn't come along onscreen until FC, where the Borg were reinterpreted into something more zombie/vampire-like, something that consumed people rather than disinterestedly running over them. And of course that was developed far further in VGR and became the accepted Borg paradigm from then on.

At the same time, you can argue that these different tactics reflect the needs of the Borg at any given time. A Borg cube on its own, in a generally scavenging mode, may have the luxury of growing children as foot soldiers for the Collective. While the Borg in a crisis situation -- like in First Contact -- must resort to extreme tactics given the situation.

Assimilation of someone like Reannon Bonadventure makes sense; humans were a new race to the Borg, and bringing her into the Collective and accessing her mind would give the Collective access to her memories and knowledge. Why interrogate, when the Collective can get what they need and add a new drone to the Collective?

So Vendetta pretty much anticipated the idea of the Borg assimilating people as a pattern, but at the time, it hadn't been clearly established in canon.

I don't know, I think Locutus' conversation with Worf in "Best of Both Worlds II" is pretty suggestive that mass assimilation of new races is the norm.

After that? Borg population growth may well be a combination of lab grown bodies and assimilated races.

 

[Christopher]

Allyn Gibson said:
At the same time, you can argue that these different tactics reflect the needs of the Borg at any given time. A Borg cube on its own, in a generally scavenging mode, may have the luxury of growing children as foot soldiers for the Collective. While the Borg in a crisis situation -- like in First Contact -- must resort to extreme tactics given the situation.

Oh, definitely. I'm fully behind the notion that there were two distinct populations of Borg, the "vat-grown" kind we saw in TNG and the assimilated kind that became routine later on. As for why we stopped seeing one in favor of the other... well, that's a question to be explored elsewhere. But one could argue that the Borg in Resistance were seemingly the old-school, vat-grown kind, since they were androgynous.

So Vendetta pretty much anticipated the idea of the Borg assimilating people as a pattern, but at the time, it hadn't been clearly established in canon.

I don't know, I think Locutus' conversation with Worf in "Best of Both Worlds II" is pretty suggestive that mass assimilation of new races is the norm.

Seems that way. But then later you had "I, Borg" saying "The Borg assimilate cultures, not individuals." It's ambiguous.

 

[Therin of Andor]

donners22 said:
I'm going to meet Richard Arnold at a Cruise Trek spin-off on 6 November. Maybe I should ask him about this...

If you're game, but we already know exactly what he said. I see Richard at conventions annually, but I always used to twitch in my seat whenever he spoke about those old "memo days" of 1989-91, because the novel/comic authors he was displeased with were among my favourites!

I've heard the "Q-in-Law" story from all three sides - Richard's, PAD's and Majel's - and, again, we are so lucky PAD and Majel were so persistent on that one. Most would have given up much earlier.

 

[Man of Steel]

And anyway, how can you say no to Majel?

 

[KRAD]

When Peter talks about the Q-in-Law experience, he often says that the six magic words whenever RA had an issue with something in the manuscript were: "Gee, Majel really liked that part."

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Well played, Peter.

 

[Brendan Moody]

I finally picked up Before Dishonor today, and have just finished reading it. I'll be honest and say that, while I was occasionally entertained and thought the book had some interesting ideas, it didn't really come together enough to make up for its deficits. I may say more once others have finished, because to discuss it in full would require major spoilers that I wouldn't dream of giving away.

I will say this: however I may have felt, lots of people are going to love this book, and at least one thing happens that you would never expect.

 

[Sxottlan]

Found it at the book store yesterday.

 

[Ronald Held]

Still waiting for mine to ship...

 

[JWolf]

So where are the ebook edtions of Before Dishonor? Late again I see.

 

[Species7582]

Ronald Held said:
Still waiting for mine to ship...

Same here

 

[Steve Roby]

Dr. Thoss said:
I finally picked up Before Dishonor today, and have just finished reading it. I'll be honest and say that, while I was occasionally entertained and thought the book had some interesting ideas, it didn't really come together enough to make up for its deficits.

Main problem for me was the characterization of the new crew members; otherwise, I quite liked it. I still think Q&A is the most pure fun of this year's three post-Nemesis TNG novels, and certainly the best in terms of character development (for characters new and old alike), but people are going to be talking about Before Dishonor. And a lot of them, I think, will really like it.

BTW, Brendan, after reading your LJ post, I got maybe ten pages into the book and thought, aha, I know the big shocker this is building up to! But what I expected happened within another 50 pages or so, and I found myself wondering, if THAT's not the big surprise, what is? PAD kept me guessing.

 

[Brendan Moody]

Steve Roby said:
Main problem for me was the characterization of the new crew members

That was my single largest problem as well. In the context of just this book itself, it was fine and made a certain amount of sense; but it jarred badly (for me) with how those characters were presented in previous books, and with their potential as series regulars. In any case, I'm interested in seeing how Greater Than the Sum and the Destiny books move all the characters new and old forward from these books.

Spoiler: some major plot details from the book

I also wasn't wild about some of the characterization of more familiar characters. After the newbies decide to mutiny I don't think anyone on either side really behaves like a grownup for the rest of the book. I assume this is supposed to reflect their desperation over the circumstances, but even with that in mind I had trouble sympathizing with their behavior. I had particular problems with Worf; his unbridled rage just doesn't seem appropriate for someone in his position.

but people are going to be talking about Before Dishonor. And a lot of them, I think, will really like it.

Definitely. It's not my kind of book at all, but it has an undeniable energy and executes its objectives very well.

 

[Steve Roby]

I think I agree with your spoiler-coded comments, but I was sufficiently swept up in the story's rush not to mind too much while reading.