Spoilers Batwoman - Season 2

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by dahj, Dec 9, 2020.

  1. Morpheus 02

    Morpheus 02 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Feb 3, 2003
    Chicago IL
    The way they are just forcefeeding Alice is just crazy (pun intended). Alice, to me, isn't anywhere near as good as Tobias Whale on Black Lightning. Storywise, Whale probably should have died in season 2, but Krondon did such a great job, and especially the 1st half of season 4, that he really worked as a longtime villain.

    But making Alice Hannibal Lector is just dumb and unnecessary. They are really struggling to make Batwoman her own character.
  2. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Vice Admiral Admiral

    May 24, 2006
    Escaped from Delta Vega
    Its all so predictable: Luke...Batcomputers, Sophie...Batwoman are all coming up empty trying to locate the trophies, so it HAS to be Alice who is the key to retrieving the weapons. Time for...Plot Convenience 101 - The Third Season Edition. One:why would Alice have the 411 on every weapon's location? There's no established set of characters who are the only people who would obtain / exploit it, so her criminal background and/or connections would not be as helpful as the trailer would suggest.

    Two: yeah, yeah, when last we left Alice, she played with Wilder's mind about the identity of her real mother, so you might be in for a scene where Wilder will--through no actual authority--demands Alice is given a chance, all for selfish motivations, only for Alice to revert back to the full-on nutjob she was early in season two and cause more problems. As noted during the S2 reviews, next to no audience members care about Wilder's mother enough for this to be a plot worth telling throughout the season, and Alice--who was moving toward some sort of normalcy--had that ripped away from her by the ever-eye-roll inducing Safiyah. Further, with her Kate issues resolved and Jacob booted from the series (rather, Dougray Scott tied a rocket to his ass to get away), what natural plotline is left for Alice? It sure as Hell is not bonding with Mary, so Alice will just be whatever the plot needs her to be, and that's not competent storytelling.

    Most of the Berlanti/Arrowverse never had another villain as strong and complex as Tobias Whale (thanks the other series not having the creators / chief writers of Black lightning), so its not unexpected to see the Big Bad characters of the Arrowverse be so shallow, and/or devoid of real human motivators.
  3. DarKush

    DarKush Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Nov 18, 2005
    What Morpheus said about the writers struggling to make Batwoman her own character struck a chord with me. While I don't find much of the writing, for the episodes I've seen of Batwoman (for either Kane or Wilder) all that compelling, I do think they've done a decent job-on paper-of creating a workable character with Wilder. I think they've done an adequate job differentiating her from Kate, establishing her relationship to Team Batwoman, and even giving her a love interest. I'm not saying the execution was great, but I do feel that Ryan is distinct from Kate.

    By making Alice the murderess of her foster mother, that does create a relationship between Alice and Wilder, so it does provide some rationale to keep Alice as part of the series, even if feels like they are contorting themselves to do so. And it also creates a relationship arc for them which we are already seeing shifting as Wilder found herself working with Alice last season. I imagine that relationship will only develop more as the new season delves deeper into Wilder's birth mother (and I imagine Alice had some kind of tie to her as well). Whereas with Kate, I felt there was more of a setup for Alice to be redeemed, not so sure that's there now with Ryan. That said, because Alice appears to be a fan favorite, perhaps the only fan favorite on this series, I do imagine they'll keep turning her into an antihero to prolong her longevity on the series.

    Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what Morpheus meant, and if the concern is Wilder not being allowed to stand on her own, I do get that. They could do more to make more personal villains for Ryan, etc (though I think they are going to address that somewhat with her biological mother and perhaps her brother as well; it stands to reason that Poison Ivy will also develop a personal animus, if not more, with Batwoman this season too). I also think with Alice staying on the series, and now Batwing joining them, that is going to challenge the writers to keep Ryan's journey as the most important and the thing the series should revolve around.
  4. theenglish

    theenglish Vice Admiral Admiral

    Nov 19, 2001
    Western Canada
    I'm getting a little tired of Alice. Her story is done and she should have always been a recurring villain at best rather than a principle character.
    DarKush likes this.
  5. Dick Whitman

    Dick Whitman Commodore Commodore

    Sep 2, 2008
    One of the advantages of allowing Tom Cavanagh to stay on The Flash as new versions of Harrison Wells was he was kept on as a regular cast member. But occasionally play The Reverse Flash whenever they wanted. But they never overdid it because that was not his main role anymore.

    I think having a main villain as a regular cast member rarely works out
    well. Overexposure. Heck, I am not sure even having a season long “Big Bad” is the best approach either. If the writers have a story and villain that is strong enough to warrant that many episodes. Fine. But it’s become a worn out formula on so much genre tv.

    By the end of the season the villain is way played out. Little demand to ever see them again ever. The days of being excited to see a villain who only appeared occasionally are long gone. Murdoc on the original Macgyver. Q on TNG. Of many examples.

    I think the same applies to occasional guest stars. Bruce McGill who played Jack Dalton on the original MacGyver just gave a new podcast interview about his time show. He reveals the producers were practically begging him to sign on as a regular cast member. He refused. He knew it would limit his ability to do other work. It he also knew that eventually the writers would runout of ideas for the character and he would just be making small token appearances because he was under contact. It work out great because they had to write episodes specifically for his character whenever he would guest on the show.

    Compared to today where shows have vast regular casts where the writers struggle to give all the characters screen time and real development . Obviously the actors get the the benefit of a regular paycheck. But there are so many stories of actors unhappy with being underused on their series.
    DarKush and theenglish like this.
  6. Enterprise is Great

    Enterprise is Great Vice Admiral Admiral

    Oct 24, 2004
    The Island
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

    Mar 15, 2001
    I was hoping he might show up, though the actor is no one I recognize. I can imagine him and Alice either teaming up or becoming rivals due to their mutual Lewis Carroll-themed schticks. I'm hoping we'll see a proper Wonderland Gang with the Tweedles and the Walrus & the Carpenter.
  8. The Habs Fan

    The Habs Fan Commodore Commodore

    Mar 4, 2005
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
    I decided to get caught up on the entire Arrowverse (I originally stopped watching due to lack of time after Arrow season 3 and The Flash season 1). Recently, got all caught up on this show, but still have Superman, half of Legends season 6, and all of Black Lightning season 4, The Flash season 7, and Supergirl season 6 to watch. I decided to watch everything using a chronological list I found rather than air date, though I’m getting to the end of the chronological list soon and will switch to air date then. I’ve been reading these show threads as I watch. Now to my point:

    I’m surprised that Batwoman isn’t more liked on here. Personally, Batwoman is my favourite Arrowverse show currently and I liked season 2 even more than season 1. Javicia Leslie is really good in the lead role and I thought they did good stuff with Mary, Luke, and Alice this season. I even liked the way they brought Kate back rather than just killing her off screen. Maybe it’s the fact I binged watch everything, but I don’t have as much apathy with the Arrowverse as I probably would have if I watched it as it aired for the past 10 or so years (though the quality drop off in the Flash is still very apparent).

    I’m excited to see what season 3 brings with Poison Ivy and Mad Hatter.
  9. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Admiral Admiral

    Jun 9, 2001
    Mr. Adventure
    Not crazy about Hatter personally but I if they have him obsess over "Alice" only for her to kick his ass I wouldn't complain.

    I wonder how long these baddies are going to be around in the new season. Are they going to stick around or is it going to be a quick "tour" as BW gathers the artifacts one by one?