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Are We Ruled by Naughty Monkeys?

Deranged Nasat

Vice Admiral
Admiral
I hope you'll forgive my armchair psychology here, because I'm certainly no authority, but I couldn't help but wonder in an amateur way about just how often human societies end up ruled by, essentially, psychopaths.

I was thinking: Many monkey species have a series of distress calls, which they use to warn the group of predators. If a monkey gives the call for "leopard!", they all scarper. I was reading some interesting information recently about a few monkeys who (perhaps) take advantage of this. They wait until everyone's getting ready to eat, then they essentially cry "leopard!" so everyone runs. They then eat everyone else's food, or at least steal a bit. Whether this is deliberate plotting is up for debate, apparently; often it's low-status monkeys and some researchers suggest they're genuinely stressed by watching others eat when they themselves can't, and they react vocally without truling "intending" to. They might not mean to deceive.

But in the case of humans...well, some humans are definitely good at deliberately misleading others and manipulating alarm and fear to serve their selfish needs (as we all know). Some humans do deceive.

I was thinking about an experience I had in school. There was another boy who was supposedly a friend, but was in fact highly manipulative. He was cunning. He was very good at saying things that seemed innocuous or harmless but were actually carefully calculated to cause harm or humiliation. He was very skilled at quietly tossing a grenade into the situation while making it look like he was simply flexing his fingers. Whenever I tried to point this out, though, the other children couldn't see it. Instead, they essentially said "right, sure" and rolled their eyes at me. I was the one made out to be in the wrong, as though I were temporarily a paranoid troublemaker who was pointing fingers at shadows. But I could see right through this other boy.

It strikes me that if the call for "leopard!" were to sound, the monkeys would NOT take kindly to any monkey who said "hold on a minute! There might not be a leopard! Let's check this out first". This monkey would be seen as putting the whole group in danger for seeking to lessen the impact of the alarm, or advocating standing around when a leopard is breathing down your neck and you should all be high-tailing it out of there. Such a threat, I doubt would be tolerated. So the psychopath gets away with it and any monkey who, hypothetically, would keep him in check is derided and attacked. They are seen as the aggressor against the group, betraying the mutual trust with their suspicious ways. Or at least weakening the group.

On the historical front, we all know our Goering:

"Naturally the common people don’t want war. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag people along whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.”

Goering seems basically to suggest that the naughty, deceptive monkey will invariably wind up the leader.

Why did almost all my fellow students not see that boy for what he was? Perhaps as the mountain to that molehill, why, at so many times throughout history, have a few madmen or psychopaths managed to hoodwink entire populations? I wonder; are the majority of humans simply psychologically incapable of recognizing a psychopath? I say that not as a judgement, but as a legitimate curiosity.

Why is the psychopath's little game so successful? Are our people so strongly committed to mutual trust that most people can't conceive - truly conceive - of its being broken? Are humans so prone to being led by the bloody and deceptive precisely because most humans are NOT like that? If so, that's truly a "do I laugh or cry?" idea, isn't it?

I'd be interested in what everyone thinks about this.
 
I'd be interested in the long-term behavior of this monkey and his group. After "the monkey who cried leopard" does this a few times, do the other monkeys catch on and kick him around or exile him?

If so, that would prove that monkeys are smarter than humans. :cardie:
 
I'd be interested in the long-term behavior of this monkey and his group. After "the monkey who cried leopard" does this a few times, do the other monkeys catch on and kick him around or exile him?

If so, that would prove that monkeys are smarter than humans. :cardie:

I don't know; I didn't have access to any of the research itself, just a few reports that it happens.

I just wonder if the reason humans seem so poor at avoiding being "had" by the deceptive and dangerous is because most of them simply can't conceive of betraying the group trust to such an extent. So much so that the one pointing out the treachery hidden in plain sight is more likely to be viewed as an enemy than the true enemy.

Fear is such a powerful emotion, I'm sure we'd all agree.
 
Often people like you describe (I don't want to use the terms sociopath or psychopath imprecisely) are quite charming. They can be more charismatic than the average person and it makes sense that people like them.

On a personal note, I find that it's better not to "warn" others. There is a girl who I have a long history with and no good feelings remain. In fact, our fathers knew each other before we were born and I was good friends with her growing up. To save a long story, I'm simply going to say that over the years I realized that she was not a nice person. We ended up going to the same college after high school and it was challenging at first. Other students knew we were not friends and sensed that there was a backstory but I didn't want to go around badmouthing her. After all, perhaps I was wrong about her.

Before the first year was up, she had already shown her true self to many people and she lost a lot of the friends she had made. I didn't need to be part of it and honestly, I'm glad I wasn't. Unless you think someone is really in danger, it's probably better to stay out and let others make up their own minds.
 
Why is the psychopath's little game so successful? Are our people so strongly committed to mutual trust that most people can't conceive - truly conceive - of its being broken? Are humans so prone to being led by the bloody and deceptive precisely because most humans are NOT like that? If so, that's truly a "do I laugh or cry?" idea, isn't it?

I'd be interested in what everyone thinks about this.


Never heard the monkey thing before, but I know what you're talking about there ^^^ I've met many people in my life (in fact I seem to be a magnet for psychos!) who are devious gits -lying, stealing, cheating- and getting away with it as no one else seems to be able to cotton on to what they're doing despite it being bloody obvious they are lying, cheating or stealing!

At every turn people ignore my cries of "leopard!" and carry on eating, then get fed up of my yells and ostracise me. Course when they get eaten by the leopard I get to do the I Told You So dance.
 
I just wonder if the reason humans seem so poor at avoiding being "had" by the deceptive and dangerous is because most of them simply can't conceive of betraying the group trust to such an extent. So much so that the one pointing out the treachery hidden in plain sight is more likely to be viewed as an enemy than the true enemy.

The Scottish Common-Sense philosopher Thomas Reid argued that trust was innate, and distrust was learned. He also argued that honesty was innate, and that dishonesty was learned. He called this the principle of credulity, and the principle of veracity.

His argument for this was, essentially, that human civilization could not exist if this was not true. If we distrusted everyone, and demanded evidence for everything we were told, our society would collapse, and we'd all starve to death. We simply have to take most of the things we're told on trust, or we couldn't function at all. And most of us do just this, without even thinking about it.

This is true even of people who consider themselves worldly-wise and skeptical. Most often, their skepticism is confined to a relatively narrow range of topics: on every other point, they're just as credulous as anyone else. And their skepticism is just as likely to come from ignorance and intellectual laziness as it is to come from knowledge and experience.

This predisposition to simply believe each other is one of the secrets of our success as a species. But it also leaves us quite vulnerable, as individuals, to manipulation and deception.
 
Please don't laugh at me for saying so, but the situation you've described is exactly why I love watching Big Brother. The U.S. version only though; in other countries' versions the viewing public votes on who is eliminated each week, but in the U.S. the houseguests vote each other out. And it's not even so much the CBS episodes that are fascinating, it's watching the live feeds.

It is highly interesting to watch a group of strangers not just learn to live together, but have to employ their strategic skills to ensure that they get to the end. Some people are just plain gullible and innocent, and soak up other peoples' words as fact, and then are shocked and saddened when they are later betrayed. Some are full of ego and go around loudly declaring their dominant status. Some are quiet and shrewd, keenly observing those around them while not inserting themselves into possible volatile situations.

And then there are the true manipulators. They are truly fascinating to watch. They somehow insert themselves into the psyches of the other types of players, building a strong sense of trust and personal friendship. They boost the others up, make them feel good about themselves, make them feel as though they have their best interest in mind at all times. They never form a true alliance or friendship with anyone, because everyone is fair game for manipulation, and it doesn't make sense to burn bridges when you can be secretly influencing everyone at the same time. Every word they say is calculated to convince someone to do something that will ultimately benefit the manipulator, while at the same time making the victim think it was their own idea.

It is very fascinating to watch these different types interact in Big Brother, where there are no outside influences. Sometimes the manipulators make it very far and even win. Other times they are outed when the rest of the house groups together to compare notes. But often, what you said is very true - the lone voice of reason, the one who sees the manipulator for what they are and wants to expose it, becomes target number one.

And people say Big Brother is just another silly reality show! If they ever sat down and watched the live feeds, they would realize what a fascinating psychological experiment it is.
 
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