Anything new on David Mack's new trilogy??

[Mage]

Has any new info been released in this yet?

I have to admit, I'm kinda worried in a way. Big trilogies like this are usually epic, like Destiny. And Destiny definatly changed things for the Federation/Alpha Quadrant. Not long after that, we got the formation of the Typhon Pact which again changed things quite a lot.

So, a new trilogy set in in the TNG era... I'm kinda worried that again huge, interstellair-changing events are going to take place which I, personally, could do without, unless it would be a continuation/ending of the Typhon Pact situation.

 

[Mr Silver]

I'll consider buying it... If it doesn't involve a species such as the Caeliar or the end of a Federation enemy.

 

[bok2384]

Of course, it doesn't have to be some epic game-changing trilogy. With next year being TNG's 25th Anniversary, perhaps the trilogy could be in the same ballpark as the excellent Crucible trilogy that celebrated the 40th Anniversary in 2006.

I know which one I'm hoping for.

 

[David Mack]

Nothing's been announced. We're still in development. When I have something that I'm allowed to share, I will.

Until then, just chill, folks.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I'll consider buying it... If it doesn't involve a species such as the Caeliar or the end of a Federation enemy.

Why is this such a big deal. It was a great origin story, fit in with what we know about the Borg, and even made sense of on screen inconsistencies. It even answered the often asked questions, "Why do the Borg focus on humanity so much?" and "Why does the collective have a queen?"

The Caeliar were also interesting and different, very much a TOS style race to encounter. But if you don't like the powerful Caeliar, you probably REALLY hated the more powerful aliens like Q and Trelane.

And so it ended them as an enemy. So what!?! The Borg either had to taken out or they would have taken over. Some threads have to be conclusively ended and what more could have been done with the borg anyways? (Aren't the Founders out of the picture now, too?)

Besides, do you HONESTLY belief he is going to tell the same story again?

 

[TerraUnam]

No, David Mack is far, far too good for that.

I've often wondered what was up but I figured nothing had been approved for release, so the author's posting upthread isn't a surprise. David Mack and other authors have said that teasers have to be cleared with the publisher.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

I'm sure Mack will also say something on facebook when he is able to say something. He regularly posts updates on his projects there. If you don't follow him, I recommend you do. The guy can be quite funny, especially after being up all night writing.

 

[Mr Silver]

Each to their own tastes. I disliked the Caeliar and the elimination of the Borg. I enjoy David Mack's work overall and look forward to the next trilogy.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

It isn't just a matter of taste. You pretty much said you don't think Mack is capable of an original story.
Besides, things between the ufp and the borg were bound to come to a head and it would have been us or them. If not for a power superior to the borg, the galaxy would have fallen to them.

 

[Mr Silver]

It isn't just a matter of taste. You pretty much said you don't think Mack is capable of an original story.

If I had said Mack wasn't capable of an original story, I would have clearly stated that.

It isn't out of the realm of possibilities for fiction writers to use similar characters and events in different works. I was merely voicing what I disliked about Destiny. I'm not going to just say I love it because David Mack is a member here.

I'd like to clarify a couple of things. I disliked the Caeliar because I didn't like the way they just swept up the Borg and acted all superior in a cold logical sort of way. I didn't like how they insisted on captivity and how that impacted on the story with long chapters about how the crew of the Colombia were adapting to aforementioned captivity. It's not exactly a new thing in Trek to have some alien species keep our heroes captive and fail to understand as the captives struggle to contend with the luxurious conditions the captors have provided.

I wasn't too keen on the Borg explanation. I disliked the way Humans are involved with the origin of the collective and felt it was unneccessary to have any connection between the Borg and Earth, whatsoever.

I thought the Destiny trilogy overall was a good series of books. It's just that a few elements weren't to my taste. I always felt the Borg should have been kept out of the novels and even live action, post-voyager. It should have left time for the Federation to think that the Borg were all but gone following the destruction of the unimatrix. Perhaps a major setback, but not complete destruction and the Borg should have re-emerged sometime later, not as a major threat but still a formidable enemy. The problem would be trying to locate exactly where the Borg were and perhaps trying to find where their origins lie, rather than going all out in some epic war that ends with a deus ex machina.

I do acknowledge that the Borg were damaged somewhat in VOY and the fact that they never fully returned to the characterisation set in "Q-Who?" and "The Best Of Both Worlds" in First Contact may have been a catalyst in that formula. The addition of the Borg Queen as a physical enemy was a bad move in some respects, but I understand the problems a team of writers could have with making a film interesting when there is no clear villian or personal enemy.

 

[TerraUnam]

I for one want to see how often David Mack manages to use the word "surrusus". Such a beautiful, rarely seen word that he managed to use at least twice in Destiny.

I respect any author who can use the word "surrusus" in a Trek novel. Legitimately.

 

[Sci]

I'd like to clarify a couple of things. I disliked the Caeliar because I didn't like the way they just swept up the Borg

I did. I think that the thing about the Borg is that once you start playing with them, you either need to have them go all-out against the Federation and win, or be utterly and permanently defeated. They're just too powerful otherwise for the third story option -- "The Federation defeats them... THIS TIME! But they're still out there... Somewhere!" -- to remain credible after it's been used so often. It undermines verisimilitude utterly if we take that option again and again. You need to either shit or get off the can.

and acted all superior in a cold logical sort of way.

Well, that was the point of their arc -- that they went from this aloof, cold, arrogant power to realizing that they need to be more humble, more heterogeneous, less aloof, as a result of their contact with Earth and the Federation. They adopted Federation values, and in doing so, saved the Federation and themselves.

I didn't like how they insisted on captivity and how that impacted on the story with long chapters about how the crew of the Colombia were adapting to aforementioned captivity. It's not exactly a new thing in Trek to have some alien species keep our heroes captive and fail to understand as the captives struggle to contend with the luxurious conditions the captors have provided.

But those scenes weren't about, "Oh, it's a luxurious cage but still a cage." That sub-plot was about how the nature of identity relates to our external circumstances, about how, so often, we become our own prisons. It's a much more sophisticated sub-plot than your standard "Starfleet captain gets captured by aliens who want him/her to like his/her cage."

I wasn't too keen on the Borg explanation. I disliked the way Humans are involved with the origin of the collective and felt it was unneccessary to have any connection between the Borg and Earth, whatsoever.

The sheer force of coincidence that a group of cybernetic organisms would happen to call themselves by a name that's identical to the suffix in the English word "cyborg" isn't enough to demand some sort of relationship?

I liked it. I thought that it makes narrative sense to relate the Borg's end to the Borg's beginning. And I loved how the Borg Collective was born as a result of existential pain and longing, of the desperate desire to avoid accepting one's own mortality, rather than out of some bullshit sci-fi parable about fearing technological and social change or what-have-you. The Borg were born in terror and horror and desperate, desperate loneliness, not a sociology textbook. Love it.

The problem would be trying to locate exactly where the Borg were and perhaps trying to find where their origins lie, rather than going all out in some epic war that ends with a deus ex machina.

Except that it's not a deus ex machina -- not exactly, anyway. The Caeliar do not arbitrarily intervene at the last minute after having never been involved in the story before (which is part of the key definition of a DEM); they were a substantial part of the story from the beginning. That's not a deus ex machina, that's Chekhov's Gun. And, further, the Caeliar didn't exactly save the day by themselves -- Hernandez saved the day, by spreading Human/Federation values to the Caeliar, saving them even as she was also saving the Federation.

The end of the Borg was, really, a matter of everything coming full circle -- the Caeliar having to confront their own mortality and cultural stagnancy; the Federation having to confront its final choice between morality and survival, and being saved by its choice of morality; the Borg being forced to accept its own mortality and to relinquish its grasp on its slaves. So much of Destiny is about having to accept your mortality rather than live in denial of it; I love it.

 

[Idran]

The sheer force of coincidence that a group of cybernetic organisms would happen to call themselves by a name that's identical to the suffix in the English word "cyborg" isn't enough to demand some sort of relationship?

I guess the force of coincidence that Vulcans are named after a Roman god of fire would demand the same sort of relationship then, right?

(I'm mostly on your side, though I can see where Captain M is coming from, but still. )

 

[Mage]

I have problems with David Mack's work, what I've read I loved. And I had no issues with the caliear or the origins of the Borg.

My 'concern' was, that Trek Lit has had some pretty big, epic events lately. Which is cool really, but a trilogy like Crucible (haven't read it but get the concept) for TNG would be fantastic. Right now, personally I prefer something less grandscale I suppose.

 

[Christopher]

I didn't like how they insisted on captivity and how that impacted on the story with long chapters about how the crew of the Colombia were adapting to aforementioned captivity.

Hmm. To me, that was the best part. Dave gets pigeonholed as an action writer, but his exploration of the Caeliar, their society, and the lifetimes-long story of Hernandez living among them was a superb exercise in science-fiction worldbuilding.

The problem would be trying to locate exactly where the Borg were and perhaps trying to find where their origins lie, rather than going all out in some epic war that ends with a deus ex machina.

It's completely wrong to characterize the ending of Destiny as a deus ex machina. A deus ex machina is a solution that comes out of nowhere, a "cheat" ending that has no basis in the earlier events of the story. Nothing could be further from the truth about the Caeliar, since the entire trilogy was about them. Virtually everything we were shown about the Caeliar over the course of three books led naturally and organically into the climax.

I for one want to see how often David Mack manages to use the word "surrusus". Such a beautiful, rarely seen word that he managed to use at least twice in Destiny.

I respect any author who can use the word "surrusus" in a Trek novel. Legitimately.

Umm, do you mean "susurrus?"

The sheer force of coincidence that a group of cybernetic organisms would happen to call themselves by a name that's identical to the suffix in the English word "cyborg" isn't enough to demand some sort of relationship?

Well, it's not actually a suffix, it's pieces of two separate roots (kybernan and organon).

And I loved how the Borg Collective was born as a result of existential pain and longing, of the desperate desire to avoid accepting one's own mortality, rather than out of some bullshit sci-fi parable about fearing technological and social change or what-have-you.

Hey, that's a nice thought. I hadn't thought of that, but yeah. It's too easy to read the Borg as an embodiment of Luddite fears of technology taking over, but Star Trek has traditionally been a universe that portrays technology as a positive, or at least neutral, force.

I guess the force of coincidence that Vulcans are named after a Roman god of fire would demand the same sort of relationship then, right?

I like to think their name is actually something like V'lkaan and human listeners just Romanized it, like rendering Srbija as "Serbia."

 

[Mr Silver]

It's completely wrong to characterize the ending of Destiny as a deus ex machina. A deus ex machina is a solution that comes out of nowhere, a "cheat" ending that has no basis in the earlier events of the story. Nothing could be further from the truth about the Caeliar, since the entire trilogy was about them. Virtually everything we were shown about the Caeliar over the course of three books led naturally and organically into the climax.

I suppose, but you have to agree that the solution did come slightly out of nowhere. It wasn't like the reader or any of the characters were informed of the Caeliar's ability to do away with the Borg.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I guess the force of coincidence that Vulcans are named after a Roman god of fire would demand the same sort of relationship then, right?

I like to think their name is actually something like V'lkaan and human listeners just Romanized it, like rendering Srbija as "Serbia."

You know you're going to have to use that in a book now, right? V'lkaan is too good not to.

 

[Christopher]

I suppose, but you have to agree that the solution did come slightly out of nowhere. It wasn't like the reader or any of the characters were informed of the Caeliar's ability to do away with the Borg.

I don't have to agree with any such thing, because it's not remotely true. Of course we weren't explicitly told how the story would end, because that's not how stories work. You don't reveal the identity of the murderer in Chapter 1 of a mystery story. But you do plant clues that the perceptive reader can potentially use to solve the mystery, or at least that let the reader think back on what they've read and realize that certain things had significance they didn't recognize before. And that's what Destiny did. We were given the pieces of the puzzle that laid the foundation for the trilogy's outcome. We were shown that the Caeliar were immensely advanced, that they were based on nanotechnology, that they had a collective consciousness, and that the city of Mantilis, with both Caeliar and humans aboard, was flung to the other side of the galaxy and the distant past. All of that was established by the end of Book 1. I'm sure a lot of readers figured out in advance that what they were reading was a Borg origin story, long before that was made explicit to the characters, because Dave played fair and gave us the clues that could allow us to deduce the Caeliar-Borg relationship if we were perceptive enough. So it does logically follow that, since the Borg arose from the Caeliar, the Caeliar would therefore have some ability to deal with them.

Hell, the Caeliar were shown to be so super-advanced that their ability to cope with the Borg should never have even been open to question whether they were related or not. It was simply a question of their willingness to apply their nigh-godlike abilities to the problem, and what they would do once they did.

Perhaps your difficulty arises from the way you're defining the ending: "to do away with the Borg." If you make the mistake of perceiving it as an act of eradication, I can see how you'd miss the throughline from the Caeliar's earlier nature and actions to that event. But that is not what they did. The Caeliar absorbed the Borg into their own gestalt. They reclaimed their wayward children and healed them. Throughout the entire trilogy, we were shown that it was the Caeliar's nature to seek gestalt, to exist in a mutually supportive communion. Their action in the climax of Destiny was a natural, logical extension of what we were shown throughout the story. It doesn't come out of nowhere any more than the revelation of the murderer's identity comes out of nowhere in a mystery story. The clues were there all along; you just have to think back and recognize them.

And it's not just mysteries, it's any kind of story. It's the corollary, or inversion, of Chekov's Law: If the third act is resolved with a gun, then the gun should be on the wall in the first. The pieces of the puzzle that lead to the outcome should be established earlier in the story. If the outcome depends on your hero being an expert at macrame, then you establish his skill at macrame earlier in the story -- although you try to do so in a subtle enough way that it doesn't telegraph the ending, because storytelling should involve an element of surprise. A deus ex machina is what you get when a story doesn't observe that corollary, when the ending depends on something we weren't told in advance. And that is decidedly not the case with Destiny. All the pieces of the puzzle were given to us ahead of the ending.

 

[SPCTRE]

Nothing's been announced. We're still in development. When I have something that I'm allowed to share, I will.

Until then, just chill, folks.

 

[captcalhoun]

i knew the Borg wouldn't be done in with a super-weapon or a mass fleet battle before the books came out, but i quickly guessed during the course of the story that the Caeliar would do something to stop them. so, yeah, it wasn't a complete ass-pull story-point.