An observation about the actions of Kirk and Kruge in Star Trek 3

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Tracy Trek, Nov 4, 2016.

  1. Tracy Trek

    Tracy Trek Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    So after what happened with the battle between Kruge's ship and the Enterprise in the Genesis system. The Klingon empire thinks Kirk is the devil himself. They think he detonated the Genesis device. Which is untrue. But I can see where they feel that is a threat.

    But they also think he is evil because he killed Kruge's crew and Kruge himself. So is no one but the Klingons allowed to defend themselves from capture or death? Or is it because they feel he did it in an underhanded sneaky way (letting them beam over after he set the self-destruct)? Yes, he did kill Kruge in hand to hand combat (actually if you want to get technical, it was boot to face at the end). But Kruge had David killed. Is that supposed to be honorable?

    So yeah, Kirk tricked the Klingons to beam over to a ship about to explode. It is very devious. But is it any worse than Klingons using a cloaking device to sneak up on their enemies. I know that the Klingon ships could not fire while cloaked at this point, but by the time a ship sees them, it's usually too late. So, I don't see how that makes them any more honorable.
     
  2. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It does not make them more honorable but politicans don't deal with honour.
     
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  3. urbandefault

    urbandefault Commodore Commodore

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    They were loudly placing blame on Kirk to distract from the fact that Kruge was the aggressor. "No fair!!! Kirk murdered our soldiers while they were innocently trying to kill him and steal his ship!!! And hey, Genesis!!!"

    Typical politician. :lol:
     
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  4. Tracy Trek

    Tracy Trek Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Was Kruge perhaps not working under orders from the Klingon government when he did all this? Was he going rogue? And then the Klingons had to place the blame on Kirk to save face.
     
  5. Paradise City

    Paradise City Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    It's diplomatic gamesmanship and political grandstanding. The Klingons want to bash the Feds and are using Kirk as the most obvious stick at hand., They are probably not too thrilled at not winning that engagement either so the politicians are busy revising the record of that defeat out of all recognition of what actually happened -- perhaps even to influence internal political jostling that maybe underway. The Chancellor of the time probably doesn't want to look like a right twit around his rivals,

    Reality in the theatre or on the ground often gets distorted and refracted when it gets into the arena of high politics. I kinda liked that touch with the Klingon diplomat. The guy has alot of neck, eh? lol
     
  6. Paradise City

    Paradise City Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Kruge seems to be semi-autonomous. Not unlike a pirate of the middle ages where the distinction between navy, merchant and being a pirate could be quite muddled and when out of communications range ships could get up to all sorts of hi-jinks. Kruge is of that type and it's interesting that he's addressed as "My Lord" at various points. Kruge is the Klingon answer to Francis Drake or someone in that vein.

    We see some of this in Redemption too. Where various commanders command fleets and so on. This is reminiscent of knights and landowners owning various standing armies of their own but all united in loyalty to the monarch. But of course in times of civil war; they'd make war on each other in dynastic struggles. It's actually quite nuanced the way the Klingons are portrayed in many respects.
     
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  7. BJ Wagner

    BJ Wagner Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm sure if Kruge had succeeded, he'd be considered a hero of the empire. Unfortunately he went up against Kirk, and since the man could not be defeated in combat, they had to try political assassination.

    As for sneaking around under cloak, didn't Worf mention some time during DS9 that victory was the highest honour? I took from that as a way for Klingons to justify any action to achieve victory no matter how extreme.
     
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  8. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Captain Captain

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    And when the Federation were fighting the Klingons(where they already in war with them?) the Klingons accused Worf for shooting at an civillian ship in rules of engagement.
    The Klingons are only honorable when it suits them
     
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  9. Paradise City

    Paradise City Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, value systems are aspirational. No people adhere to their value systems in absolute terms and neither do the Klingons. Even the Vulcans screw up alot. The task for each Klingon is to do their best and strive to emulate the example of their polestar, Kahless. The idea that they fall short and screw up alot or that there are plenty of Klingons who are dishonourable isn't really that remarkable.

    Klingons communicate alot by song. And it always amuses me watching Worf getting outraged when Kor exaggerates some of his feats through that medium. I think it reveals a degree of naivety even a seasoned guy like Worf has for his own culture.
     
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  10. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    My assumption is that it was all bluff and bluster from the Ambassador. Based on what Kruge says, it seems the Klingons genuinely believe Genesis to be secrectly a weapon, hidden by the duplicitous (from their perspective) Federation behind a harmless terraforming project. If there's a passionate belief in the Empire that the Feds are developing a 'game changing' super weapon, then Admiral Kirk's involvement in that project makes him a big target for political spin. The Klingon Ambassador seized that opportunity.

    I do tend to believe Kruge was acting alone, he hoped to be the guy who uncovers the Ferderation's secret plot and takes all the glory. But perhaps he was doing so for his greater love of the Empire.
     
  11. KelisThePoet

    KelisThePoet Commander Red Shirt

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    I really wish the writers would have made the Klingon system of honor more like Earth honor cultures, in which honor is defined by the esteem of one's society and peers, not by private virtues. As it was, Klingon honor often meant nothing more than doing right by every different Klingon's subjective definition. But, that was a Generation era problem. Like all twenty-third century Klingons, neither Kruge nor the ambassador ever talked about honor. One wanted a military advantage. The other responded to violence against his own by demanding reparation. Both cited "preserv[ing] our race" as their key motivation and value, much in line with the imperialist mindset of Klingons such as Kor in "Errand of Mercy" and Chang in The Undiscovered Country.
     
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  12. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    In the movie Kruge does state he is working for himself. He did not give a toss about treaty violations even tho he was in Federation space. The Federation/Klingon border must be poorly policed.
    If the Klingons had invented Genesis, Kirk would have done what Kruge did, invade the empire to destroy the device. A ST Myriad universe novel has Starfleet using the device as a weapon against the Klingons after all, to end a war that none are winning. David Marcus is horrified; the Klingons self fulfilling prophecy of destruction comes true.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2016
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  13. KelisThePoet

    KelisThePoet Commander Red Shirt

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    Well Kirk violates Romulan space in "The Enterprise Incident" (with Starfleet authorization) on basically the exact same justification Kruge uses--a lot less brutal in his methods, of course.
     
  14. Tracy Trek

    Tracy Trek Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I recently got that book for my Kindle and read that story.
     
  15. cgervasi

    cgervasi Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Klingons' honor culture hadn't been established by the time of Star Trek III. But TNG does address the issues you talk about. Worf accepts his loss of esteem in the eyes of his peers while maintaining his private virtues. Klingon gov't is often corrupt. What it considers honorable is often dishonorable according to Klingon values. Worf was raised on earth and works in Starfleet, so he's able to follow the traditions and ignore the opinions of the corrupt Klingon gov't.
     
  16. KelisThePoet

    KelisThePoet Commander Red Shirt

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    The public shaming Worf endures in "Sins of the Father" is consistent with the idea of social esteem in an honor culture. Elsewhere throughout Generation-era Star Trek, the word "honor" and idea when applied to Klingons was used much more sloppily.
     
  17. 2takesfrakes

    2takesfrakes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    What gets me is how the Klingons only give a shit about blaming Kirk. All of the other implications of the events in STAR TREK III are very secondary to them. Kirk did this ... Kirk does that ... Kirk! Kirk! Kirk! And when they've got him, what have they gained? No doubt, they'd parade him around, in victory and all that, but in a more meaningful sense ... what has it got them? I suppose, it's the continued belief that he's an expert on Genesis, so they can mind probe him on it and all that good stuff. But it never comes across that way. To tell you the truth, it just seems very thinly written, to me. Not badly written, necessarily. But this attempt at making us concerned for our Hero never really registers. It's pretty clear, even on a first viewing, that it's not going anywhere.
     
  18. JediKnightButler

    JediKnightButler Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    "Game of Klingons?"
     
  19. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    I remember some concept from early Trek literature or off-screen background materials that Klingon ships were basically privateer operations. Kruge's misadventure in TSFS would fit in with this.

    Kor
     
  20. diankra

    diankra Commodore Commodore

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    That's roughly it; early 80s books (the SFS novelization, but also Final Reflection and references to it) assume that an aspiring Klingon strikes out on his own as a pirate, and if succesful returns to honour and reward - which is very 16th century England, though itvhappened for centuries before and after.
    The big problem is, obviously, that the Klingon accusation is right: protomatter means apparently that Genesis doesn't work so far as making habitable planets goes, but it can still destroy planets, far more effectively than anyone ever does later (8472 get close, but even then...)
     
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