An alternative way of thinking TMP...

[Emperor-Tiberius]

... Is to consider TMP as the cinematic finale to the Original Series, essentially the equivelant to TNG's "All Good Things" and DS9's "What You Leave Behind", although more cinematic in scope, obviously. It takes the story a few years after the five-year mission, but not a long while afterwards, and encapsulates Spock's character development as seen throught TOS.

Also, that would make II-IV a saga of its own, obviously, but one that depicts a TOS crew that older and wiser.

I know this might seem like a silly idea at first, and it is really an idea I am more interested in hearing thoughts about, quite honestly, but... What do you think?

 

[Winterwind]

Jumping forward a few years for a finale to a series? No thanks. What happened in TMP was far too removed from the series to work that way. Spock of back on Vulcan, McCoy essentially retired, Kirk behind a desk, two officers we've never heard of before in Decker and Ilia... Nope. Doesn't work for me.

 

[Cyke101]

Jumping forward a few years for a finale to a series? No thanks. What happened in TMP was far too removed from the series to work that way. Spock of back on Vulcan, McCoy essentially retired, Kirk behind a desk, two officers we've never heard of before in Decker and Ilia... Nope. Doesn't work for me.

Yeah, I'm going to agree here. One of the basic themes of TMP is a reunion of sorts: the crew reassembles, they get the ship back, Decker and Ilia get back together, V'Ger fulfills its mission to bond with the "Creator." On the contrary, a finale tends to be about major changes and the departure of the status quo (at least, All Good Things showed a potential future of that departure, and arguably Picard's new perspective of humanity could count as well).

 

[SchwEnt]

I can see a bit of this thinking, if only in broad general terms.

TMP has been an odd-man out. It's never referenced in any other ST, as if it never happened. It doesn't fit in with the other TOS films.

Rather than leaving TMP out as a singular oddity in the franchise, I can see a broad grouping of
(TOS+TAS+TMP) and then (all the TOS movies).

I love TMP.

 

[CaptainMatt]

I applaud the OP for thinking outside of the box, even if it does not seem to have gained wide appeal here.

 

[DrCorby]

I don't think it's a silly idea. But that's not how I look at TMP.

To me, TMP feels like a "transitions" story. At it's heart, it show's Spock's enlightenment, realizing that he can accept being half-human and half-vulcan, and that purging all emotions and totally embracing logic is "cold, barren". His struggle throughout the original series is resolved. He's a more integrated character from here on out.

Kirk transitions from desk-bound to active-duty (even though he's back at Starfleet Command in TWOK). Decker & Ilia transition to being part of a new lifeform. McCoy transitions back to Starfleet. It's (sort of) a new ship, with the old crew restored.

TMP really does stand alone, between two different eras, not really part of either. Of course, YMMV.

 

[Warped9]

I can see a bit of this thinking, if only in broad general terms.

TMP has been an odd-man out. It's never referenced in any other ST, as if it never happened. It doesn't fit in with the other TOS films.

Rather than leaving TMP out as a singular oddity in the franchise, I can see a broad grouping of
(TOS+TAS+TMP) and then (all the TOS movies).

I love TMP.

There is a sense from TWoK onward that TPTB liked to pretend TMP never happened. And from there on and into the successive series the feeling continues.

 

[arch101]

I'll side with the OP. As Trek has grown over the decades, I've often thought of TMP in a "group" with TOS/TAS and a second "group" as the remaining TOS films.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Jumping forward a few years for a finale to a series? No thanks. What happened in TMP was far too removed from the series to work that way. Spock of back on Vulcan, McCoy essentially retired, Kirk behind a desk, two officers we've never heard of before in Decker and Ilia... Nope. Doesn't work for me.

Well, FWIW, 'Enterprise's These Are The Voyages' finale was also a jump forward in time - though judging by the general consensus that it sucked tribble balls, that's not the best example to cite. The next Batman movie, seen as the finale to Chris Nolan's trilogy of movies, apparently jumps forward some years after TDK.

However, while TMP is clearly distinct from the cheaper budgeted, red-uniformed and less sombre 5 movies that followed it, I can't really see it as a closer to the tv show either. Perhaps if it had started off with the end of the 5 year mission as a prologue, I might agree. But, no it's meant to be a new beginning - a new-look, revamped ship, new uniforms, a new dynamic between the crew, a new theme tune, etc.

Interesting theory though.

 

[Nerys Myk]

TMP feels more like a reunion special/pilot for a spinoff than finale. Like Return to Mayberry or one of those Brady Bunch TV movies.

 

[xortex]

It was GR's last push and effort to put his stamp and seal on TOS and say what he wanted to say with that saga. I loved when the Enterprise explored giant mysterious alien things like that, and like in TAS. It gave Trek and the vastness of space and some scope and an objective POV finally. After that it became other people's brain child and just very different from TOS which was GR for all extents and purposes. TOS was all about mystery which was lost in TNG when everything became very talky and pat.

 

[zar]

TMP has been an odd-man out. It's never referenced in any other ST, as if it never happened.

TMP conceived of Kolinahr, which was later referenced a lot.

 

[SchwEnt]

TMP has been an odd-man out. It's never referenced in any other ST, as if it never happened.

TMP conceived of Kolinahr, which was later referenced a lot.

That is true. TMP also showed Star Fleet being in San Francisco by the Golden Gate bridge, which was also referenced a lot.

I was thinking more of the events of TMP, as something that doesn't seem to exist in ST "history". Hell, it's like they never knew Earth came with minutes of being wiped out.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ Yeah, in DS9, they referred to the Changeling crisis as the greatest threat faced by Earth since WWIII. Um - V'ger? Then again, I suppose they also overlooked the threat created by the Whale probe in TVH.

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ Yeah, in DS9, they referred to the Changeling crisis as the greatest threat faced by Earth since WWIII. Um - V'ger? Then again, I suppose they also overlooked the threat created by the Whale probe in TVH.

If you were a citizen living on Earth, you'd certainly notice WWIII and the Changeling crisis affecting your life. What would you perceive about the approach of V'ger? And the Whale Probe just brought some bad weather for a short while.

 

[Captaindemotion]

^ But this wasn't an ordinary citizen. This was either the Federation President or that corrupt admiral who used to be Sisko's C/O (it's been years since I've seen the ep). They might be expected to realise the severity of either of those threats and that each of them brought Earth to the edge of imminent destruction.

Of course, in reality, it was probably easier from the writer's POV to make a reference to WWIII and be sure that the audience would immediately understand it than to refer to incidents in movies which had been made years earlier and featured a different crew!

 

[zar]

Of course, in reality, it was probably easier from the writer's POV to make a reference to WWIII and be sure that the audience would immediately understand it than to refer to incidents in movies which had been made years earlier and featured a different crew!

I don't buy that this was the reason, it seems uncharacteristic of DS9. This is the show that brought over two TNG characters as series regulars who mention their experiences on Enterprise from time to time. If a viewer didn't know what "the V'Ger crisis" was, it wouldn't really have been any more confusing than the references to the Cardassian and Tzenkethi wars, which were never even actually depicted in any movie or episode.

He could have just been referring to internal threats... which would have been relevant since he was stationing Sisko on Earth itself.

 

[CaptainMatt]

If TMP is to be counted as a big budgeted feature finale to TOS, then what does that say about Nemesis being the same for TNG TV series?

 

[Captaindemotion]

Of course, in reality, it was probably easier from the writer's POV to make a reference to WWIII and be sure that the audience would immediately understand it than to refer to incidents in movies which had been made years earlier and featured a different crew!

I don't buy that this was the reason, it seems uncharacteristic of DS9. This is the show that brought over two TNG characters as series regulars who mention their experiences on Enterprise from time to time. If a viewer didn't know what "the V'Ger crisis" was, it wouldn't really have been any more confusing than the references to the Cardassian and Tzenkethi wars, which were never even actually depicted in any movie or episode.

That's a good point; DS9 was always willing to throw in a continuity reference, whether obscure or obvious, for the fans.

He could have just been referring to internal threats... which would have been relevant since he was stationing Sisko on Earth itself.

Works for me.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

If TMP is to be counted as a big budgeted feature finale to TOS, then what does that say about Nemesis being the same for TNG TV series?

Well, not wanting to start a fire, but in that instance I'd say GEN is more fitting, given how Ent-D is destroyed and all.

OK, the reason I mentioned that TMP could be seen as a Series Finale is only for the obvious reason that TOS/TAS never had a concluding episode/story. Sure, comics/novels have gone that route, but visually, TMP is all we have, technically, that could fit that category, before the next phase of their on-screen life began with TWOK.

Of course, I should point out that there have been a lot of logical arguments in this thread about it, and I appreciate the thought behind each one of them. Thanks for tolerating and entertaining my idea, folks!