• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

An alternate USS Defiant

Graham

Commander
Red Shirt
So I love the Defiant as a concept, and I mostly like the design, but several things really bugged me about it.

For one, it always struck me as too small. Yes, I know it was stripped of all the science labs and had much smaller quarters and everything, but even so, it just feels too small to me given that it goes head to head with dedicated warships many times its size. So I wanted to scale it up somewhat. Not ridiculously, just... somewhat.

Second, it seems that the weapons on the ship don't match up to the description of how powerful the ship is. The dorsal saucer phaser array on a Galaxy class is almost 4 metres wide and about eight hundred metres long! In comparison, one of Defiant's phaser cannon is only about a metre and a half across. So I wanted the cannon to be big and mean looking. Likewise, I wanted to have other weapons. Lots of them.

BUT... I didn't want to create some absurdly over the top fan design, like those ships you see with fifteen nacelles and mega-hyper-super-phasers on them. The idea was to have something that the Federation could reasonably build, and which would more sensibly justify the "most powerful ship in the quadrant" type comments DS9 threw around.

So here's what I came up with...

Alternate-Defiant-1.png


As you can see, BIG cannon. But not that big, really. Think of the phaser lance in All Good Things, or even those huge cannon on the Negh'Var.

Also, an array of forward facing tubes, rather than just a couple, and the tubes much more prominent. I never much liked that quantum torpedoes seemed to be basically photon torpedoes of a different colour. I wanted mine to be bigger, obviously more powerful.

Alternate-Defiant-2.png


The aft end. Much bigger impulse engines, and twin aft facing quantum tubes. Also I relocated the shuttle bay. I never much liked 'drop type' shuttle bays. Either you park your shuttle on the doors, which seems like really bad engineering ("Sorry Captain, the door lock broke and the shuttle fell out."), or you have to have this expanse of floor space that you can't use. Either way, not good. So I put mine in what seemed like the most obvious place. Originally these were much smaller, but I resized them so that they could, just, take a Danube class Runabout. Runabouts turned out to be a good deal larger than I'd expected them to be!

Alternate-Defiant-3.png


There's a general absence of windows on my version of Defiant, because windows are weak spots. The only place you find them are in the hull sections containing the crew quarters. These are behind the phaser cannon, so difficult for an enemy to hit. And those sections are non-essential anyway, and would be empty during battle. The armour scheme is such that these sections are lightly armoured, but there is a big slab of armour behind them. So a hit there would blast the empty quarters before being hopefully stopped by the armour behind.

Note also phaser arrays dotted around the ship. These are 4 metres wide, as wide as a Type X, though shorter than the main arrays on a Galaxy class.

Alternate-Defiant-4.png


A close up of the Quantum tubes and a phaser array. Note there are also phaser ball-type turrets as tertiary weapons, because sometimes you don't want overkill. Like having 30mm cannon on a modern Destroyer because sometimes the target doesn't rate a 127mm main gun round.

Also, I figured that since the design was based on fighting the Borg, the thing to do would be to have as many different types of weapon as possible. As the Borg adapt to one, you switch to another - so you get as much time to strike as possible before your weapons become useless. To that end, I considered having the main cannon be disruptors rather than phasers. Perhaps Klingon weapons engineers assisted in the design of them? I also thought that the ship would probably be designed to allow the deflector weapon the Enterprise-D tried to be a standard feature of the deflector design. That would give the ship photon torpedoes from the nose probe launcher, quantum torpedoes, disruptor cannon, phaser arrays, and phaser ball turrets. Quite the loadout!

Alternate-Defiant-5.png


A close up of the cannon. The darker patches of the hull are thick slabs of armour - over the cannon, that armour is about thirty inches thick. Over the nacelles it's double that. There are other protective features, too - the bussard collectors have armoured grills over them, which means gas can still flow into them along the Y-axis of the ship but they're shielded if you go more than a few degrees off axis. The bridge is buried with hull structure all around it; the bridge dome is thick armour, and the glass ceiling dome is replaced by a big thick lump of extra armour.

So, some stats :

Length overall : 235.7 m (773 feet)
Breadth overall : 214.3 m (703 feet)
Height Overall : 71.5 m (234 feet)

Weapons : 4 Pulse Disruptor Cannon (4 fwd); 8 Quantum torpedo tubes (4 fwd 2 aft); 10 Type X phaser arrays (1 fwd, 4 stbd, 4 port); 1 probe launcher, capable of launching photon torpedoes (1 fwd); 10 Phaser turrets (6 drsl, 6 vntrl).

Crew : 135, facilities to carry 100 tactical crew with equipment.


So that's my take on the Defiant. Hope you like her!
 
This is so not my cup of tea, but fantastic work all around, and I completely get the line of thought and appreciate you pursuing it to very cool ends. I really enjoy how much you've thought through the concept and execution. Makes total sense!

(I know it probably doesn't need the caveat about not caring for the design itself, but I'm kind of sick of how a lot of these boards are either slavish praise or naked hatred, and I think it's amazing when people who love a thing can find the faults and people who don't like a thing can find the strengths.)
 
I really like your thought process and the thinking behind everything, but... when looking at the ship all I see is a chibi, cute looking Defiant.

Windows are a great visual aid for measuring starship size. By having no windows (or any hull feature of the sort other than the docking port) it looks a lot smaller. The oversized weapons and bridge structure also help that effect, it looks like a small fighter craft, not a 200+ meters starship.

Again, I love the concept and thought process, I just feel like the implementation could use some more work. :)
 
I'm going to echo Rekkert and Starship Jo here and say that while I appreciate the thought process behind what you're doing, the end result is in need of some refinement. What I loved about the Defiant as we saw her on DS9 is that even though she was this small, stripped-down, chunky-looking warship, there was a certain grace about the design elements that made it clear this was still a Federation starship. Between the oversized weapons and the beefier profile, yours is kind of the 'roid rage version of that.
 
Thanks for the feedback.

I can understand why people won't like it, and that's fair enough.

Not sure what you mean, Rekkert, the ship does have windows, as I pointed out, and they're pretty visible in the third image.

And yeah, it is somewhat "Defiant on steroids". That was kind of the point - my biggest issue with the Defiant we got was that there was something of a mismatch between the ship we saw and the ship we heard about described. Dukat called it one of the most powerful ships in the entire quadrant; Tom Riker expected it to be able to take on three warships and win easily. It took on six Jem'Hadar warships and beat them all. Yet the ship we see is a modestly armed pretty ordinary vessel. A hulked up version makes more a lot more sense to me.

Your mileage may vary, of course.
 
@Graham - it's an interesting idea. IMHO, your textures seems to be throwing off the scale that you want to portray. In your 3rd image (the 3/4 view) at that distance the panel lines are too wide (and deep) making the ship look like a fighter craft instead of a 700' long ship. Try making the lines thinner. Use a reference shot of the TMP Enterprise at that distance to get a feel of how visible those panel lines should be.
The nacelle and nose grills are very well done. Just my 2 cents. Cheers!
 
Thanks for the feedback.

And yeah, it is somewhat "Defiant on steroids". That was kind of the point - my biggest issue with the Defiant we got was that there was something of a mismatch between the ship we saw and the ship we heard about described. Dukat called it one of the most powerful ships in the entire quadrant; Tom Riker expected it to be able to take on three warships and win easily. It took on six Jem'Hadar warships and beat them all. Yet the ship we see is a modestly armed pretty ordinary vessel. A hulked up version makes more a lot more sense to me.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

So, I think the disconnect for me is that there is perhaps too fine a line between "on steroids" in the "can beat records and kick your arse" way and "on steroids" in the "looks like that guy literally can't move because his neck is too big to fit through a door or even turn" way, which is kind of... stubby? Like an inflatable pool-toy version of the Defiant?

Obviously whatever aesthetic you prefer is up to you, and all the thought you put into the more butt-kicking muscle Defiant can be visualized in various ways. If I only had your text to go on, I'd visualize something with a bit more lean muscle, so it still looks fast.

But again, I totally get the more tank-like concept you're going for, and that's totally valid.
 
If it is to show how it's supposed firepower is to look like then yep, much more realistic than the one on the show, of course for a federation vessel it would be all a bit "too much" visually but don't let that stop you, as for the tank comment, I can understand that, a tank is nothing more than a mobile platform with as much armor on it as possible so it can move a big gun onto the battlefield.
 
@Graham - it's an interesting idea. IMHO, your textures seems to be throwing off the scale that you want to portray. In your 3rd image (the 3/4 view) at that distance the panel lines are too wide (and deep) making the ship look like a fighter craft instead of a 700' long ship. Try making the lines thinner. Use a reference shot of the TMP Enterprise at that distance to get a feel of how visible those panel lines should be.
The nacelle and nose grills are very well done. Just my 2 cents. Cheers!
I'm very much an amateur when it comes to texturing, and still have a hell of a lot to learn on the subject - I've literally only been doing it for the last few weeks. So thanks for the feedback on that.

So, I think the disconnect for me is that there is perhaps too fine a line between "on steroids" in the "can beat records and kick your arse" way and "on steroids" in the "looks like that guy literally can't move because his neck is too big to fit through a door or even turn" way, which is kind of... stubby? Like an inflatable pool-toy version of the Defiant?

Obviously whatever aesthetic you prefer is up to you, and all the thought you put into the more butt-kicking muscle Defiant can be visualized in various ways. If I only had your text to go on, I'd visualize something with a bit more lean muscle, so it still looks fast.

But again, I totally get the more tank-like concept you're going for, and that's totally valid.
Thanks, appreciate it. I've often thought about just how fast the Defiant 'should' be. On the one hand it's a small ship compared to most, and is 'overpowered' according to dialogue, which could translate into a lot of speed, leading to a fast-looking design. But honestly I prefer the idea that whilst it has the power to go fast in theory, it does tend to nearly shake itself to bits if you try. In universe O'Brien solved that, but I rather like it as a limit on the ship, that it's not necessarily the fastest design around, just the most powerful. A battleship rather than a battlecruiser. As you say, it's a personal preference thing.

If it is to show how it's supposed firepower is to look like then yep, much more realistic than the one on the show, of course for a federation vessel it would be all a bit "too much" visually but don't let that stop you, as for the tank comment, I can understand that, a tank is nothing more than a mobile platform with as much armor on it as possible so it can move a big gun onto the battlefield.
I can imagine on the show a designer who turned in a sketch of this for the Defiant would have been told to tone it down a lot. Klingon ships are pure warships, for instance, and they aren't anything like as obviously built for war as this is.

Agreed with your comment re the tank - I once opined that whilst I think Klingons look at ships as basically a way to move guns around, the Federation looks at ship design as an art form. Part of what I was going for here is not so much the Federation designing a warship their way, all sleek and whatnot, but more setting out to build something with one goal - massive firepower and damage resistance. It would probably make a chief engineer weep to see how non-Starfleet it is, but it would also be extremely powerful. A space tank is a good way to describe it. The design was partly inspired by the A-10, which isn't far off being a 'flying tank' itself.

Thanks again for the comments, guys. Appreciate it.
 
Well, I appreciate the design effort, and the resizing of the Defiant was definitely needed, in my estimation. I'm not one for large guns so I'll put that caveat out there. That said, I think the overall redesign works well, and makes the Defiant more appealing to me.

It's a great gunship vibe that I get from it, which I really appreciate. I just think the two guns on the engine are just a bit overlarge.

With those critiques out of the way, I like the idea, and really appreciate the redesign.

On a note, you are quite right about the A-10. It was basically an airframe built around the Vulcan cannon.
 
Having such massive phaser cannons on the outer hull makes them a far easier target, especially on a scaled up ship. Yes, she does have torpedoes and arrays, but with the damage they'd take being disabled and blown off the hull the rest of the ship would also suffer.

I've always had a thing for small ships, so loved the fact that she was a compact and stripped back design.
 
I like it. I'm not really thinking about it in the Defiant role, so much as just whether I like the design generally, and I do.

Now, turn it green, give me a top view, and throw some Galagans at it. ;)
 
I've gone back to look at this thread a couple of times now. It's a very interesting take, and I appreciate the effort. I like the focus on survivability you've incorporated.

The windows really stick out at me though. Are windows behind the cannons a good idea? As you say, they're a weak spot and I think attacking the offensive weaponry, cannons especially, will be a focus of the enemy. When they get blown apart, debris goes right to the windows. Secondly, is there much good in a window if all you see is the inboard side of a big cannon? Why not make the hull completely solid, and simulate windows with monitor screens that are projecting the short range sensor data for the crew's psychological benefit?

Again, impressive work!
 
I've gone back to look at this thread a couple of times now. It's a very interesting take, and I appreciate the effort. I like the focus on survivability you've incorporated.
Thanks!

The windows really stick out at me though. Are windows behind the cannons a good idea? As you say, they're a weak spot and I think attacking the offensive weaponry, cannons especially, will be a focus of the enemy. When they get blown apart, debris goes right to the windows.
Okay, I don't know how clear I've been about this, so here goes.

The original design didn't have any windows at all. But as Rekkert pointed out, windows are a great visual aid for measuring scaling a ship to the eye, so I decided to try out putting some in there. So what I did was add two housings, one either side of the main hull, with windows. It looked good, so I left them.

Now in universe, I figure the design process was somewhat similar. Those housings are where the majority of the crew quarters are, maybe some non-essential storage areas, etc. It's all stuff that will 1) be empty of people during battle, and 2) contain stuff that can be blown up without affecting the ship significantly. I can imagine coming back from battle where one of those sections took a hit - the crew have to hot-bunk on the other side, you have people sleeping in corridors, etc... but everyone is still alive and the ship still works.

Also, those sections are literally built onto the main hull, meaning that whilst they're not especially armoured themselves, they have a layer of armour behind them. And behind them is only the shuttle bays, which again are nonessential. So the very worst case scenario is that a weapon hits the cannon, where it has to pass through a 30 inch thick layer of armour. Then it has to burn through the body of the cannon. Then it hits the windowed section, which contains nothing essential. If it burns through that, it hits another layer of armour behind. And if it gets through that... it opens the hangar bay to space. The one section of any ship that is already designed to be depressurised without causing any issues.

Incidentally, the idea of having rooms exterior to your protective walls is something medieval castles did. Back when they were functional, a castle was typically a lot more than you see now - many of them had wooden buildings built onto the outside of the castle to provide extra living space. Those areas would be evacuated during an attack and everyone would retreat within the stone walls.

Secondly, is there much good in a window if all you see is the inboard side of a big cannon?
Realistically, probably not. I know that in my own sci-fi universe 3D retina-resolution displays are cheap and commonplace, so there are virtually no windows at all on any warship; instead rooms have a wall screen that can project an exterior view so convincing that you can't tell it from a window, exactly as you suggest. I don't doubt that by the 24th century we will be able to do that. Hell, we can practically do it now. Yet Starfleet does put windows in their ships, including the Defiant. Given the armour scheme and sacrificial nature of the section with windows, I don't see that this addon hurts it any.

Again, impressive work!
Thanks again. :)
 
Thanks!
So the very worst case scenario is that a weapon hits the cannon, where it has to pass through a 30 inch thick layer of armour. Then .... Then ... If it burns through that ... And if it gets through that...
... Then Starfleet shouldn't have picked a fight with them. :)

... and the best time to attack the Defiant is 3am with a cloaked ship, so hopefully you can kill 1/3 of the crew right away...

Thanks for taking the time.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top