Amok Time - A True Classic!

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Admiral Archer, May 9, 2019.

  1. Admiral Archer

    Admiral Archer Commander Red Shirt

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    Just got finished rewatching Amok Time. This was probably only the second or third time I've ever actually sat down and watched the whole thing, and I was surprised at how amazing it is. It's the perfect example of what makes Star Trek: The Original Series so great.

    Just a couple of thoughts:
    -It takes much more time than I remember to get to Vulcan from the start of the episode. The build up, however, is very nice, and once we get to Vulcan the payoff is so worth it.
    -The Vulcans seem to wear silver helmets similar to the gold helmets the Romulans wear.
    -The scenes with Nurse Chapel, while somewhat cringeworthy in parts, are overall sort of sweet. I truly sympathize with her in the scenes she was in.
    -Wasn't T'Pau later featured in Enterprise, as a younger Vulcan?
    -After having seen the bridge of the Enterprise in Discovery, I was worried the TOS bridge wouldn't hold up to repeat viewings. Not to worry, both bridge designs compliment each other perfectly.
    -The highlight of the episode was the reason I rewatched: Spock's joyous line "JIM!" It was such a breath of fresh air to hear Leonard Nimoy say that line, after the past two weeks of my personal life sucking so bad, that I laughed out loud. Spock has never been my favorite character of Star Trek, but he's still amazing, and he is high on my list nevertheless.

    This episode was the perfect example of everything right and wrong with the original series. And if the previous sentence is true, then there is a lot more going for the original Star Trek than there is going against. Live Long and Prosper! :)
     
  2. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Written by Theodore Sturgeon.

    And, yes, a much younger T'Pau appears in the fourth season of ENTERPRISE, during the Vulcan adventure.

    And I imagine those silver helmets cut down on the number of pointed ears required for the scene. :)
     
  3. BillJ

    BillJ History’s Greatest Monster Premium Member

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    And was almost the NX-01 science officer instead of T'pol. :eek:
     
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  4. Delta Vega

    Delta Vega Captain Captain

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    One of my all time top five TOS episodes
     
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  5. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    I actually ran into a guy this week who didn't realize that T'Pau and T'Pol were NOT the same character.
     
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  6. GNDN18

    GNDN18 Tribute? Sure, sign me up. Premium Member

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  7. Cutie McWhiskers

    Cutie McWhiskers Commodore Commodore

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    It tackles the theme of procreation as interestingly as it does so maturely -- and is a great example of a sci-fi show taking itself seriously. and it holds up well in part due to its taking itself seriously. The build-up and intrigue presented are nothing less than great. True, McCoy saves the day and nobody does a medical test as part of a "get out of jail free denouement" but it's easily forgivable given how great everything else about it is. Even Chapel as, if memory serves, she was showing the unrequited hots for him as early as "The Naked Time".
     
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  8. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    He must have missed the final season.

    Kor
     
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  9. Antonovus

    Antonovus Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I forgot about T'Pau being in Enterprise--which really reveals the life span of Vulcans. Not to change the subject, but are there any canonical or non-canonical answers for maximum Vulcan life-expectancy?
     
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  10. Redfern

    Redfern Commodore Commodore

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    I think it was mentioned in the Stephen Whitfield book "The Making of Star Trek", suggesting Vulcans lived an average of 200 to 250 years. We do know that Sarek was 102 (point blah, blah, blah...) in "Journey to Babel" and then we saw him again some 80 or so years later in "The Next Generation". So that certainly gives a bit of credence to that "behind the scenes" info'.
     
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  11. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    This episode provided some interesting insights into Vulcan culture/society, showing that not all of them are as noble as Spock.

    Kor
     
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  12. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Yep. What's more, it was actually our first look at any Vulcans other than Spock.
     
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  13. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    In "Journey to Babel":

    The script to "Journey to Babel" describes Amanda as being 58 years old. The Making of Star Trek does describe the Vulcan lifespan as 250 years. It also describes how Spock and Sarek reconciled their differences in a dangerous situation and thus in "Journey to Babel", and describes Amanda and Sarek as being still 58 and 102.

    If Amanda is 58 and her age when Spock was born was Y, Spock's age X in "Journey to Babel" should equal 58-Y. If "The Cage" where Spock was already third in command of the Enterprise, was about 14 years earlier, it should have been when Amanda was about 44 years old. Since it is normal to graduate from a naval academy aged 22, and then take several years to be promoted to third in command of a naval ship, Spock should have been at least 22 when Amanda was 44 and thus born at least as early as when Amanda was 22. So Spock would be about 36 in "Journey to Babel".

    In order to make Spock more experienced and senior in "The Cage" he should have been commissioned as much earlier as possible, and thus be as old as possible. In order to make Amanda as sensible and mature as possible when she decided to marry an alien, she should have been as old as possible when she married Sarek and later when Spock was born.

    Thus Spock's age in "Journey to Babel" is important. Some may want to avoid having the equivalent of tabloid headlines say "Alien Ambassador Marries Teenage Earth Girl" and so wish to make Spock as young as they can, while others may want to avoid having "Spock the boy genius Starfleet Academy graduate" and so wish to make Spock as old as they can.

    Assuming that Spock is about 36 years old in "Journey to Babel", how old is Sarek in the TNG episode "Sarek"?

    So if Sarek's age in "Sarek" is between 202.000 and 202.999 (presumably Earth) years, "Sarek" should be about 99.563 to 100.562 Earth years after "Journey to Babel". If Spock is aged about 36.00 to 36.999 in "Journey to Babel" he should be aged about 135.563 to 137.561 in "Sarek".

    In "Unification, Part 1":

    I believe that "barely a year ago" would fit somewhere between 1.000 and 1.500 years earlier, and thus that Sarek would be aged between about 203.000 and 204.499 and Spock aged about 136.563 to 139.061 in "Unification Part 1".

    And probably a few days after Picard makes that log entry, when Picard and Data are on a Klingon ship headed for Romulus:

    So Sarek is the only Vulcan whose age at death is known at all precisely from data that is totally canon, between about 203.000 and 204.999 Earth years and probably closer to the lower limit than to the higher. Sarek's illness probably shortened his life span considerably.

    According to Memory Alpha, Spock was born in 2230, died and was revived in 2285, and in 2387 went back in time to the alternate reality in 2258 and died in 2263 in the alternate reality aged 162. Those dates are based on the official chronology which is not totally canon and which could be inaccurate.

    And I think those are the only precise lifespans for any Vulcans.

    See also my answer to this question:
    https://scifi.stackexchange.com/que...ain-pike-in-star-trek-discovery/207121#207121https://scifi.stackexchange.com/que...ain-pike-in-star-trek-discovery/207121#207121
     
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  14. Doctor Bombay

    Doctor Bombay Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    "Amok Time" is one of my personal favorites if for no other reason than it was one of my Dad's favorites. I'll always remember the look of his face each time he saw Spock beat the viewing monitor flat.
     
  15. ZapBrannigan

    ZapBrannigan Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah, the events of Star Trek III eliminate Spock as a meaningful data point. All the variables and factors in his rapid re-growth are unknowable.
     
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  16. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Do we know for sure Spock's age in the new Star Trek? I mean he looked pretty old and washed out with the newer crew sadly! We can't measure our time to Trek time that coherently surely? Was there a date given for the film? And what was the cause of Spock's death given in Beyond? An acute allergy to Vulcan Plomik soup maybe?
    JB
     
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  17. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    Possibly at some point Spock had one or more experiences possible in a science fiction setting which made him older than the number of years since he was born, and he might possibly have been older in "Unification", Star Trek (2009) etc. than the number of years which elapsed between his birth and going back in time.

    It is possible that Spock's mother Amanda may have experienced the opposite effect than Spock Prime.

    In my post number 13 above I point out some chronological problems with the ages of Amanda and Spock. It is possible that because of various events possible in a science fiction setting Amanda was younger in "Journey to Babel" than the number of years since her birth, the opposite situation as might be the case for Old Spock or Spock Prime.

    Note that in "Sarek" Sarek's condition is identified:

    So a percentage of Vulcans (unspecified to the audience but known to the characters) live to be over two hundred years old.

    So a percentage of Vulcans (unspecified to the audience but known to the characters) who live to be over two hundred years old suffer from Bendii Syndrome.

    This shows that Sarek was probably not the oldest Vulcan who ever lived. But it doesn't help much in suggesting what a totally canon typical Vulcan lifespan is.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  18. Mysterion

    Mysterion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That and his being a half-human hybrid would also probably have affected his potential longevity to some degree in any case.
     
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  19. MAGolding

    MAGolding Captain Captain

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    Oops! I forgot to account for that.

    In "The Deadly Years", when Spock should have been approximately 36 years old, Spock is among those whose aging is rapidly accelerated.

    If aging at about 30 years per day, less than a week of life left would mean that none of them could be expected to live as much as 210 more years if not affected by hyper aging. That might mean that if Spock is 36 Spock is not expected to live to be about 246. But if some of them might live for about half a week longer, three or four more days, that would correspond to about 90 to 120 more years than their present age. In the present time that would be an impressive life expectancy for even the approximately 22-year-old Ensign Chekov.

    And a little later in the same scene:

    So if Spock is about a fit and healthy as a Vulcan somewhere between 100 and 200 years old, Spock should have already aged about 64 to 164 years.

    So at about 30 years per day Spock should have aged for about 2.133 to 5.466 days by then.

    Later in the episode, in the hearing to replace Kirk as Captain:

    So Kirk apparently aged about 30 years per day for about 0.866 to 1.266 days since he was on Gamma Hydra IV to reach a physical age of sixty to seventy two.

    So Spock seems to have been aging about 1.684 to 6.311 times as fast as Kirk has. It would seem that the approximately 30 years per day figure is very approximate.

    If a Vulcan lifespan of 250 years is equally as common and probable as a Human lifespan of 70 years, the typical Vulcan would live about 3.571 times as long as a typical Earth Human.

    If humans age 1.684 to 6.311 times as fast as Vulcans, the alleged Vulcan lifespan of 250 years would be the equivalent of a TOS era average Human lifespan of 39.613 to 148.456 years.

    But Spock is not Vulcan but half Vulcan and half Human, and so might have an intermediate life expectancy:

    So apparently Spock has been aging slower than a Human but faster than a typical Vulcan. So the rate of aging thirty years per day might be an approximation and the victims might actually have been aging a specific percentage of their normal lifespan per day. If the normal Human lifespan was 150 years a 30-year-old person with the condition expected to live 3 to 4 more days would be aging about 0.20 to 0.266 of a lifespan per day.

    And if the condition made Spock age 64 to 164 years in 1.00 days his life expectancy at age 36 would thus be about 320.000 to 616.541 years. Which seems much too long according to what little other data is available.
     
  20. johnnybear

    johnnybear Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Spock was in better condition than the rest of the landing party in The Deadly Years although he claimed that his hearing was off by a few decibels and wasn't his quarters heating needing to be turned up a little? :vulcan:
    JB