Amateurs Try Genetic Engineering at Home

[MIB]

You know, I can't help but be somewhat perturbed that the immediate reaction to this is calls for prohibition. Garage experiments aren't exactly one step away from creating a super-virus from scratch. It's like saying fooling around with some glow-in-the-dark paint should be outlawed because it will soon give people the ability to build nukes in their basement. Most of the greatest innovations in human history have been given to us by amatures. While I understand there will come a time when the technology being messed with will go beyond an amature's ability to properly contain, I don't think making glow in the dark bacteria is quite at that level.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Deks,

You are aware that there are people without professional training that often excel in areas other people are in as professionals, aren't you?

Yeah, but you can't just condone anybody just doing very complicated and in some cases highly risky procedures without training. Could you imagine what would happen if everybody started playing doctor or surgeon? It would be a disaster.

Formal academic education/training isn't a guarantee that a person will be good in a specific field or have the necessary knowledge.

True

For example ... you have doctors who perform medical procedures and end up leaving their extremely dangerous (and expensive) equipment inside their patients after the surgery.

I know, trust me, I know.

People were suing hospitals over such instances in US (such aren't exactly rare either and happened in well known hospitals).

I'm more than aware of that...

In turn ... if a person is not a certified doctor, but has read about specific medical procedures, or has medical knowledge that can save another individual's life ... are you saying they should leave them be, to die?

If it was an emergency, I would say take your best shot if you know what you're doing.

Note: this would be in a situation where doctors aren't available or don't have enough time to reach the scene.

I know...

These home-made genetic engineering experiments will be limited either way, so I personally don't think there's any real threat to mankind.
And if anything, given the fact people who pursue these kinds of aspects as hobbies, they also have a tendency of being extra safe.

You never know actually. I truthfully think you're right. However there's always some mad genius who gets lucky. I remember this (true) story about David Hahn who attempted to produce a fast breeder reactor in a shed. Of course he wasn't successful but he produced a tremendous amount of radiation (it could be detected through concrete five blocks away) and endangered the whole town.

Of course there is always a remote possibility that 'something' might happen ... but it's just that ... a remote possibility (which should be acknowledged yes, but not to the point of being amplified and used to push others into a false sense of fear).

As I said in Post 17 of this thread, part of me wonders if this is all contrived just to scare people into surrendering all their rights to privacy and what not.


Arrghman,

Except you can't just do that. Someone would need to have advanced knowledge of genetics to be able to engineer something like that if it's even possible... and by definition, such a person would not be an amateur.

Well they would be highly experienced. But if they don't do it for work or money, they're technically amateurs.

The fundamental principle behind rights is that a person has the right to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.

I am well aware of this.

We're not talking about people creating advanced genetic weapons in their basements because the complexity of that sort of thing is beyond someone who doesn't have advanced training to begin with. And the dangerous pathogens are already controlled by default.

David Hahn managed to get his hands on things that were supposedly controlled and were well beyond the knowledge of a great many people.

I think the key solution here is to place restrictions on the sale of certain genetic materials, DNA-samples so that those without proper qualifications cannot get their hands on them

However, as I said in Reply 17 of this thread

I'm starting to think this whole thing is contrived or greatly exaggerated in order to scare people into giving up their privacy rights for safety; it strikes me as a Hegelian-Dialectic process in action. Most people don't know what a Hegelian Dialectic is, but it can be summed up as: Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis, or Problem, Reaction, Solution. A problem is exploited to get a reaction, where upon a solution is then floated as the fix.

Example
- Problem: People are doing genetic engineering in their basement and a potential psychopathic terrorist, or some fool who knows less than he thinks he does, could unleash a plague on us potentially endangering all life on Earth.
- Reaction: Fear for safety, people wanting the government to protect them against this happening.
- Solution: Government provides a "Solution" for the problem, which ends up more or less amounting to spying on every single person 100% of the time.


CuttingEdge100

 

[FordSVT]

Picture the Earth a couple hundred years from now when any idiot can program his own army of self replicating machines to do anything from build him a new house to eating a city, and the governments of the world employing their own machines to seek harmful ones out and destroy them. Think AVG for Planet Earth.

This lady in her garage doesn't pose a threat, but there is an ethical dilemma we're going to have to face at some point. Technology is becoming more capable, cheaper, and more accessible to the average person. It's no different from the current realization that it won't be long before any nation on earth will be able to build their own nuclear weapons. There is only so long you can keep a lock on a decades old technology, genetics and robotics and computers included.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

FordSVT,

This lady in her garage doesn't pose a threat, but there is an ethical dilemma we're going to have to face at some point. Technology is becoming more capable, cheaper, and more accessible to the average person. It's no different from the current realization that it won't be long before any nation on earth will be able to build their own nuclear weapons.

Unfortunately the dilemma ends up amounting to Security vs Freedom. And from what I see lately, I think Security is going to win out which I don't think is actually acceptable as the latter would include monitoring every action of every person all the time and eventually the complete erosion of all freedom and privacy.


CuttingEdge100
"Freedom is the Right of all Sentient Beings"

 

[farmkid]

Excuse me? all she needed was yoghurt and some Jellyfish DNA? and a few bits of cheapo lab equipment?

Don't talk fricking wet!

"oh I think i'll just squirt some of this DNA into the yoghurt, put it into a test tube, warm it up over a bunsen burner, spin it around on a machine for an hour or two and create a new lifeform."

I've just searched online, I can't find anywhere that sells DNA samples.

The DNA they are talking about is the gene for Green Fluorescent Protein, which was first cloned quite some time ago and is now routinely used by many labs around the world. (This year's Nobel Prize for Chemistry was awarded to three guys who did a great deal of work on GFP to make it the tool it is today.) In fact, I use it and other fluorescent proteins routinely in my research, in some cases doing genetic engineering somewhat similar to what the person in the OP is trying to do. In her case, she would need to find some bacterial promoter that is active in response to the presence of melamine (I don't know if there is such a thing) and clone it upstream of GFP. Then, she just needs to get that into the yogurt bacteria cells (which isn't hard). However, she then needs to figure out a way to culture the bacteria and keep them growing. That may not be so easy. It's not cheap either. The GFP plasmids are a few hundred dollars and the enzymes required are a few hundred more. The most basic equipment required would probably be a few thousand dollars.

 

[Jadzia]

Unfortunately the dilemma ends up amounting to Security vs Freedom. And from what I see lately, I think Security is going to win out which I don't think is actually acceptable as the latter would include monitoring every action of every person all the time and eventually the complete erosion of all freedom and privacy.

I don't like that idea either, but what you say is the gist of what is to come. As technology develops, individuals become empowered with more and more advanced tools, which provide the means to do greater and greater harm, should we choose to use the technology that way.

The only practical safeguard against malicious use of a technology so powerful is to actively prevent minds from utilizing it, by cracking down on basic freedoms, restricting access to knowledge, and monitoring our daily activities and communications.

The people of tomorrow may look back to 2008, and be awestruck by the liberties we currently have, and wonder why we complain.

*waves to people of tomorrow *

 

[Ezri II]

Removed by choice.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

Jadzia,

I think it's a gist of things to come as well... I don't like it one bit.


CuttingEdge100

 

[Meredith]

Picture the Earth a couple hundred years from now when any idiot can program his own army of self replicating machines to do anything from build him a new house to eating a city, and the governments of the world employing their own machines to seek harmful ones out and destroy them. Think AVG for Planet Earth.

This lady in her garage doesn't pose a threat, but there is an ethical dilemma we're going to have to face at some point. Technology is becoming more capable, cheaper, and more accessible to the average person. It's no different from the current realization that it won't be long before any nation on earth will be able to build their own nuclear weapons. There is only so long you can keep a lock on a decades old technology, genetics and robotics and computers included.

That is exactly why we need isolated space colonies!!!! The Future writes itself!!!!

 

[Arrqh]

David Hahn managed to get his hands on things that were supposedly controlled and were well beyond the knowledge of a great many people.

This doesn't support your argument at all. He pulled radioactive material from common sources in commercial products... lithium batteries, smoke detectors, etc. The anaolgy doesn't translate to genetic material. You can't extract smallpox DNA from commonly available materials.

I think the key solution here is to place restrictions on the sale of certain genetic materials, DNA-samples so that those without proper qualifications cannot get their hands on them

And as I said, this already exists. You can't order some smallpox DNA, nor any other dangerous pathogen... the CDC, or their equivalent, would shut down any place that would distribute pathogens like this without oversight. You don't need to create new regulations to cover this because the transport of infectious material is already a matter of public health and there are already systems in place to deal with this.

I'm starting to think this whole thing is contrived or greatly exaggerated in order to scare people into giving up their privacy rights for safety; it strikes me as a Hegelian-Dialectic process in action. Most people don't know what a Hegelian Dialectic is, but it can be summed up as: Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis, or Problem, Reaction, Solution. A problem is exploited to get a reaction, where upon a solution is then floated as the fix.

To be honest, I'm a bit confused by what you're saying.

The Fox News article does not appear to be taking an alarmist position nor does it appear to be calling for new regulation. People in this thread, including yourself, are... but I don't see any of the exaggerated reporting you seem to suggest. At least not from the media. They're not the ones calling for additional regulation... but you are. So how can you do that and then turn around and blame it on... whatever organization you're claiming as conducting this Hegalian-Dialectic process?