Advice on leaving Vista.. for XP? Linux?

[USS KG5]

Consider that firefox is the most used browser by linux users I really don't see what point you are trying to make here.

That linux is as good as windows for general web browsing with Firefox, I was agreeing with you...

Huh? The codecs in Linux are nearly all open sourced. It's just that no Linux distributer can include them as binaries due to patent issues.

You said yourself the average user wants to play a few MP3s but CAN'T with a default linux install because of copyright issues - OK, downloading only takes a few clicks but your AVERAGE user will run scared at the first prompt screaming "what is a codec?"

As of Ubuntu 8.10 it's as simple as pasting the following line "sudo apt-get install ubuntu-restricted-extras" into the terminal to get any codec you'll need or equivalently 3 clicks in the gui package manager. Even in Windows you have to install a DVD player for dvd playback and special codec packs for MPEG-4 playbacks.

However - in Windows you normally get all this stuff pre-installed, and for fraks sake how many average users (which is what we were discussing) have even seen a command line let alone used one in this day and age?

You really seriously overestimate the average user.

iTunes is only irreplaceable in the sense that it's the only software that works with the iTunes store. However there are millions of users who don't use the iTunes store. They can certainly pick another player like amaroK which will work just as well if not better.

Average user - we were talking about the average user, not an IT professional or tech savvy person.

Linux is shit for mr joe normal who wishes to just use his PC, it is an enthusiasts and professionals OS and is not suitable for widespread use for anyone with an IQ of less than 130, OK?

Also I am not sure where did you get your info but it's definitely possible to build a High Definition media center using Linux. I could turn one of my linux machines into one right now without much tweaking. Sure I do need a new sound card for S/PDIF output to the video card and a Blu-ray burner for Blu-ray playback but at the moment I could output video through HDMI. It's not a OS restriction at all.

OK - I'm pleasantly surprised that Blu-Ray playback via HDMI is supported under linux.

I'm not anti-linux but I think it is not for the masses just yet.

I don't really see how is it only for specialized role. Engineering isn't any more specialized than professional video/photo editing.

I don't see the selection of specialist roles being relevant - it is good in a supported environment doing special jobs, it is great and cheap in the back office and it has a great future.

But it remains a shit OS for the average home user, IMHO. This was my only main point in the original post you were debating.

Let us not forget I also mentioned being quite impressed with linux on the little EEE PC - it will get there evntually i'm sure.

Lets see what I have done on my Linux boxes and a linux laptop for last 5 years.....

Crikey some people never change - I never said linux was no good - read my original post - but for the average home user it is still too inconsistent, too difficult to use and too much of a jump from flawed but friendly windows xp and yes even vista.

Yes Linux is ready as desktop option for a lot more people than its current market share would indicate.

Agreed - but I think it still needs the following: -

1. Conformity - distros need to merge, make friends, make nice, make compatible - one big friendly OS to compete with Microsoft.
2. Become a big business - Linux is a great foundation but to win over the mass market and businesses it needs marketing, support and partnerships with hardware vendors on a scale way bigger than currently.
3. Take its opportunities - related ot the above - Vista has been a DISASTER for Microsoft, Apple have gained share from it, have any linux distros?
4. Be really, really easy. Install software with wizards and a few clicks - yes RPMs are great but not every distro uses them...

Seriously can you say it has all these things in place?

 

[Garrovick]

Sez who?

Many non-Apple people.

There was an article on the front page of MSNBC the other day.

Remember, we are talkng world wide...

 

[The Doctor]

True enough, Linux is getting wide acceptance in government settings all over Europe, mostly because of a backlash against Microsoft. That acceptance has yet to transfer over into wider adoption as a personal desktop platform.

 

[Daedalus12]

You said yourself the average user wants to play a few MP3s but CAN'T with a default linux install because of copyright issues - OK, downloading only takes a few clicks but your AVERAGE user will run scared at the first prompt screaming "what is a codec?"

However - in Windows you normally get all this stuff pre-installed, and for fraks sake how many average users (which is what we were discussing) have even seen a command line let alone used one in this day and age?

You really seriously overestimate the average user.

Average user - we were talking about the average user, not an IT professional or tech savvy person.

Linux is shit for mr joe normal who wishes to just use his PC, it is an enthusiasts and professionals OS and is not suitable for widespread use for anyone with an IQ of less than 130, OK?

And I think you are seriously underestimating a good fraction of those average users. For one thing you did mention that you expect the J6Ps to install some softwares i.e. iTunes even on Windows. I don't see the difference between that and installing amaroK on a distro like Ubuntu. Both takes only a few clicks (no you don't have to use the command-line in Ubuntu to install software). The people who are tied to the iTunes store can make their own decision.

Dell shipping pre-installed Linux boxes should also help with the adoption by the average joe. The "hardest" part of linux or any OS for that matter is the installation and configuration but of course the average joe user rarely installs and configures windows either. They usually call up technical support for that stuff. Configuring computers isn't even that hard. It just requires the memorization of knowledge that most people would deem as esoteric so they don't want to do it. And I don't expect them to do that hence Dell's decision to start ship Ubuntu desktops is a very important one.

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

1. Conformity - distros need to merge, make friends, make nice, make compatible - one big friendly OS to compete with Microsoft.
2. Become a big business - Linux is a great foundation but to win over the mass market and businesses it needs marketing, support and partnerships with hardware vendors on a scale way bigger than currently.
3. Take its opportunities - related ot the above - Vista has been a DISASTER for Microsoft, Apple have gained share from it, have any linux distros?
4. Be really, really easy. Install software with wizards and a few clicks - yes RPMs are great but not every distro uses them...

Seriously can you say it has all these things in place?

Mark Shuttleworth is attempting to fulfill 1 to 4 with Ubuntu. The progress has been good though not particularly great on the adoption rate.

In the case of 4 have you only used RPM based distros? IMO apt-get which is in I think every Debian based distro (Ubuntu included) is a better package management system. In Synaptic (which is the gui front-end to apt-get) it's literally only a few clicks to install softwares.

 

[USS KG5]

For one thing you did mention that you expect the J6Ps to install some softwares i.e. iTunes even on Windows. I don't see the difference between that and installing amaroK on a distro like Ubuntu.

MOSTLY - it is pretty decent to install software on modern linux, the installer for VLC I last used on Fedora 9 was great - though it did require a few lines of command to get it going.

There are still problems with dependencies though. Like it or hate it the DLL system on windows does make writing few-click installers which install what you need, upgrade what they need, and ignore what is not needed pretty simple, albeit prone to problems on occasion, though to be honest I have not had one of these problems for years.

It is not necessarily a fundamental technology problem, but I think that the fact that there are many different ways of doing things within even a small community, where if they all sat down and decided on one way, things would improve.

(no you don't have to use the command-line in Ubuntu to install software).

I know, I've used it.

The people who are tied to the iTunes store can make their own decision.

Seperate debate altogether - though the end of DRM for music downloads is clearly in sight.

Dell shipping pre-installed Linux boxes should also help with the adoption by the average joe.

Oh agreed totally - the EEE PC is another example, and this will become more popular on cheaper pcs that will never run Vista.

Mark Shuttleworth is attempting to fulfill 1 to 4 with Ubuntu. The progress has been good though not particularly great on the adoption rate.

One distribution alone is still too small - unless one distribution (and it could happen for Ubuntu) makes deals with several of the big vendors (say Dell, Lenovo, Acer and HP) then the others might get on board, pool their best development talent and come up with something truly competitive.

In the case of 4 have you only used RPM based distros? IMO apt-get which is in I think every Debian based distro (Ubuntu included) is a better package management system. In Synaptic (which is the gui front-end to apt-get) it's literally only a few clicks to install softwares.

Cool - then why don't all the distros use it?

I am not even remotely anti-linux. I was thinking of building a small desktop to run as a linux box for playing with and development work, it has some great features as an OS and I think it has a bright future.

BUT - there needs to be one clear choice of distro, that sets itself up to provide for the key opportunities that exist for linux, that have been created by Microsoft's failures and greed which should be exploited, a few opportunities I can see: -

1. and MOST IMPORTANT - desktops and servers for the SME - license costs for Windows and office can be murder, a simple lightweight linux desktop, coupled with a linux equivalent of SBS on the server and an OpenOffice 3.0 with the integration of MS Office and a quick and dirty database app the equivalent of Access, and you have something I for one would be interested in.
2. Low cost laptops and desktops - Vista is a fat bastard and needs uber-hardware to run effectively and MS in their infinite wisdom are not supplying the far less hungry XP any more. There are a lot of £200 laptops and desktops on the market now for J6P who as you say will browse the web, listen to a few mp3s, read his email - get linux on those!!
3. Partner with Google! Could Linux make it big if Ubuntu for example became the "Google" OS??

 

[Lindley]

And in those last few years, Linux has been catching up to OS X at a constant and steady rate. Almost neck and neck.

So long as that increase is coming from Windows systems, so much the better. The *nix systems have to stick together, after all, and that includes OSX.

 

[USS KG5]

Interesting link relating to partnerships to push linux for business: -

http://reddevnews.com/news/print.aspx?editorialsid=10101