A thought or two regarding "Justice"

[Darth_Pazuzu]

I've recently been re-watching the Season 1 episodes of The Next Generation, and one of them was Justice. Granted, for a variety of reasons, it's one of the most loathed episodes of early TNG, but when I was watching it, I couldn't help but remember seeing something I once saw on a local public access TV station a few years back.

During the whole debacle that took place a couple of years back regarding the displaying of the Ten Commandments, there was some sort of "town-hall meeting" (I don't know if that's the proper term) at the local city hall, and it was shown on a local public-access station. There was this one man who was passionately advocating being able to display the Ten Commandments on government property, and he was going on this long-winded riff on morality and popular culture, and at one point he even roped in the TNG episode Justice - not by name, but he made mention of the episode in which Captain Picard declared at one point, "There can be no justice as long as laws are absolute!" Needless to say, he regarded this sort of statement as symptomatic of what he (and people like him) regard as the insidious moral relativism that's supposedly poisoning our popular culture! Obviously, a devout culture warrior, this guy...

Yeah, I know perfectly well that Justice is one of TNG's lamest episodes, but I personally feel that Captain Picard's statement is very true. After the above-quoted line, he then adds that "Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions!" And then Commander Riker chimes in "Since when is justice ever as simple as a rule book?" (Maybe I don't have the quotes 100% word-for-word, but I believe think that's basically what they said.)

I'm somewhat disturbed by the fact that there are so many people in this country (and the world, for that matter) who cling to absolute, rigid codes and their own false certainties, and who are frightened and disturbed by anything which even remotely threatens their particular way of looking at the world - even if it's just an episode of a TV series!

 

[sbk1234]

Agreed on all counts. It does go to show that even an episode that so many consider one of the worst still contains some morality to it that is worth remembering.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Which one was Justice?

Was that the one where Wesley was sentenced to death for treading on a flowerbed or something?

Why couldn't the Enterprise have just beamed him back onboard?

 

[Timo]

At first, because they didn't want to piss off the locals; they thought they could clear up the misunderstanding and continue amicable relations. But later on, because they definitely didn't want to piss off the powerful protector of the locals - an alien machine or being that had the power to block transporters at will, and probably also to make starships disappear.

They had to argue with that machine or being to get the transporter blockade lifted. And that argument was something of a reductio ad absurdum take on the capital punishment thing, where both sides of the argument were well presented: the deterrent effect of capital punishment was undeniable here, but taken to ridiculous extremes, while the fallibility of laws was evident as well.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

I agree with the original poster... whatever its flaws, "Justice" has some great lines. Picard's "no justice so long as laws are absolute" is a favorite of mine, a very true and important statement. Another favorite of mine is when Data asks whether Picard would sacrifice one life to save a thousand. Picard replies, "I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that!" Like the other quote, the line is a repudiation of the idea that we can reduce moral decisions to simple formulas rather than the careful exercise of our own judgment.

The sad thing about "Justice" is that it was heavily rewritten from the original John D.F. Black pitch, which would've been a much more interesting and morally ambiguous tale. Basically the only element of Black's story that made it into the final show was the idea of random punishment zones where death was imposed for breaking even the smallest law. In Black's version, this was imposed on a much more dystopian world where it was deemed a necessary defense against anarchy. That would've been less incongruous than what we got, I think.

Actually, though, I don't really mind the "planet of free love" idea; the main problem with it is that broadcast standards wouldn't really let them be too frank about the idea so it came off awkwardly (which was the same problem every Risa episode had later on). And the overall story isn't bad, aside from the tired Roddenberrian trope of the godlike superbeing.

My main problem with "Justice" is: what the hell happened to the Prime Directive? Here's this planet of simple folk with no star travel, and the crew just beams down and makes contact anyway? That kind of oversight would've been excusable in an early TOS episode, when the PD hadn't been established or clearly defined yet, but it's inexplicable in an episode that came along 20 years later. Especially since the PD was mentioned in this very episode.

 

[RAMA]

I've recently been re-watching the Season 1 episodes of The Next Generation, and one of them was Justice. Granted, for a variety of reasons, it's one of the most loathed episodes of early TNG, but when I was watching it, I couldn't help but remember seeing something I once saw on a local public access TV station a few years back.

During the whole debacle that took place a couple of years back regarding the displaying of the Ten Commandments, there was some sort of "town-hall meeting" (I don't know if that's the proper term) at the local city hall, and it was shown on a local public-access station. There was this one man who was passionately advocating being able to display the Ten Commandments on government property, and he was going on this long-winded riff on morality and popular culture, and at one point he even roped in the TNG episode Justice - not by name, but he made mention of the episode in which Captain Picard declared at one point, "There can be no justice as long as laws are absolute!" Needless to say, he regarded this sort of statement as symptomatic of what he (and people like him) regard as the insidious moral relativism that's supposedly poisoning our popular culture! Obviously, a devout culture warrior, this guy...

Yeah, I know perfectly well that Justice is one of TNG's lamest episodes, but I personally feel that Captain Picard's statement is very true. After the above-quoted line, he then adds that "Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions!" And then Commander Riker chimes in "Since when is justice ever as simple as a rule book?" (Maybe I don't have the quotes 100% word-for-word, but I believe think that's basically what they said.)

I'm somewhat disturbed by the fact that there are so many people in this country (and the world, for that matter) who cling to absolute, rigid codes and their own false certainties, and who are frightened and disturbed by anything which even remotely threatens their particular way of looking at the world - even if it's just an episode of a TV series!

Justice, a very good concept, badly executed. But that was one ofthe best lines in all of STNG, and Picard's speech was excellent.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

Which one was Justice?

Was that the one where Wesley was sentenced to death for treading on a flowerbed or something?

Why couldn't the Enterprise have just beamed him back onboard?

Because Starfleet has rules about interacting with other cultures...duh.

RAMA

 

[Timo]

My main problem with "Justice" is: what the hell happened to the Prime Directive? Here's this planet of simple folk with no star travel, and the crew just beams down and makes contact anyway?

To be sure, nothing in the episode suggests the Edo would be unaware of the interstellar community or would be facing their very first alien contact with our heroes.

A single individual expresses some anxiety about being brought to orbit above Edo, but she doesn't suggest this would be a first for her species. And she has plenty of reason to be anxious, as she's about to meet her God.

Indeed, how is she aware of the existence and residence of her God when said entity lives in orbit, if not through access to space (be it spaceflights or space sensing)? The Edo do know God is in orbit, that much is ascertained when Picard first brings up the issue.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Trekker4747]

My main problem with "Justice" is: what the hell happened to the Prime Directive? Here's this planet of simple folk with no star travel, and the crew just beams down and makes contact anyway?

To be sure, nothing in the episode suggests the Edo would be unaware of the interstellar community or would be facing their very first alien contact with our heroes.

A single individual expresses some anxiety about being brought to orbit above Edo, but she doesn't suggest this would be a first for her species. And she has plenty of reason to be anxious, as she's about to meet her God.

Indeed, how is she aware of the existence and residence of her God when said entity lives in orbit, if not through access to space (be it spaceflights or space sensing)? The Edo do know God is in orbit, that much is ascertained when Picard first brings up the issue.

Timo Saloniemi

Pretty much my thoughts. The Edo may not have been part of the warp-travel community but they knew about it and alien races so the PD didn't really apply.

The biggest thing for me in this episode is the sillyness of bringing Wesley down on the away mission. It reeks of a terrible plot device.

"And.... uhh Wesley can join us so that he can, um let's see... OH! See if it is a good place for young people to visit! Yeah, that's it! A planet with scantly dressed people and free sexuality, yeah we need to bring The Boy along!"

Why did Wes need to be brought? Only because he needs to get himself in trouble and cause the problems. He served no real "need" to go on his first -and only- away mission.

It would've made more sense to have Riker, Worf or anyone else on the crew break a "law" and have that drive the plot. As it makes more sense for any one of them to be down there than, "bring him to see if it's a good place for young people."



The "laws are absolute" and other aspects of this episode are good concepts. Wesley doofishly falling into a flower bed during an away mission it makes no sense for him to be on? Not so much.

:big boy voice: "I'm with Starfleet. We don't lie."

 

[DWF]

And the overall story isn't bad, aside from the tired Roddenberrian trope of the godlike superbeing.

We have no idea if the Edo God is a superbeing or a race of beings and their "God" did appear to have a space ship or a space station of some kind.

I didn't mind the ep. all that much personally Brenda Bakke was hot and it seems like this story set the stage for ep. to be set on Risa.

 

[Christopher]

My main problem with "Justice" is: what the hell happened to the Prime Directive? Here's this planet of simple folk with no star travel, and the crew just beams down and makes contact anyway?

To be sure, nothing in the episode suggests the Edo would be unaware of the interstellar community or would be facing their very first alien contact with our heroes.

Okay, but how would "our heroes" have known that upon arrival? They'd just discovered this planet, and there was no indication that they'd received any sort of signal or invitation from them. So how would they have known it was okay just to beam down and introduce themselves?

Indeed, how is she aware of the existence and residence of her God when said entity lives in orbit, if not through access to space (be it spaceflights or space sensing)? The Edo do know God is in orbit, that much is ascertained when Picard first brings up the issue.

Since their "God" was a real entity, they could've received that information directly from it. And even if they did have telescopes or ships enabling them to reach orbit, that's a far cry from being aware of warp-capable civilizations.

 

[Forbin]

I'm somewhat disturbed by the fact that there are so many people in this country (and the world, for that matter) who cling to absolute, rigid codes and their own false certainties, and who are frightened and disturbed by anything which even remotely threatens their particular way of looking at the world - even if it's just an episode of a TV series!

Oh, I SO agree!

However, as to the episode, I don't think anything with Brenda Bakke running around in a skimpy outfit can be bad.

 

[DWF]

Okay, but how would "our heroes" have known that upon arrival? They'd just discovered this planet, and there was no indication that they'd received any sort of signal or invitation from them. So how would they have known it was okay just to beam down and introduce themselves?

Blame Dr. Crusher she said it the planet was OK to visit, although Wil Wheaton does touch upon the PD issue in his rather humorous review of the ep. even though he misspells canon.

http://www.tvsquad.com/2006/12/05/star-trek-the-next-generation-justice/

 

[The Old Mixer]

Okay, but how would "our heroes" have known that upon arrival? They'd just discovered this planet, and there was no indication that they'd received any sort of signal or invitation from them. So how would they have known it was okay just to beam down and introduce themselves?

I guess I'd assumed that they were grandfathered in from some previous accidental contact or somesuch. Pre-PD perhaps...?

Blame Archer!

 

[Christopher]

Nope, Picard's initial log entry explicitly says "We have discovered another Class M planet in the adjoining Rubicun system." (Although how the system could have a name without astronomers already having identified the presence of an M-class world there is a mystery. We're within a decade of being able to identify habitable planets in other star systems from dozens of light-years away.)

 

[Timo]

But we still catch our heroes in mid-action. Riker has already been down there, and Yar has scanned the laws; we could just as well assume that these actions were preceded by contact with the Edo that established them as savvy in interstellar affairs, perhaps similarly to folks like Halkans or Capellans or Argelians or Gideonites who by themselves don't seem like active starfarers.

(As for Yar missing the obvious, I don't have a big problem with that. The obvious would often be well hidden in plain sight, the better the more absurd it was. When was the last time the Zones saw active use?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

But we still catch our heroes in mid-action. Riker has already been down there, and Yar has scanned the laws; we could just as well assume that these actions were preceded by contact with the Edo that established them as savvy in interstellar affairs, perhaps similarly to folks like Halkans or Capellans or Argelians or Gideonites who by themselves don't seem like active starfarers.

But at least in all those cases, it had been established that contact had occurred sometime before the episode; it wasn't claimed that the Enterprise itself had made first contact just hours before.

Sure, it's usually possible to make up a rationalization after the fact (although it's a stretch in this case), but the point is, if the story itself offers no explanation, that's still a flaw in the story.

 

[The Old Mixer]

You see, it all started when Picard decided to take a joyride in his dune buggy....

 

[Darth_Pazuzu]

I agree with the original poster... whatever its flaws, "Justice" has some great lines. Picard's "no justice so long as laws are absolute" is a favorite of mine, a very true and important statement. Another favorite of mine is when Data asks whether Picard would sacrifice one life to save a thousand. Picard replies, "I refuse to let arithmetic decide questions like that!" Like the other quote, the line is a repudiation of the idea that we can reduce moral decisions to simple formulas rather than the careful exercise of our own judgment.

That's probably one of my favorite things about the character of Jean-Luc Picard. We once again see this side of his character in the movie Insurrection: "How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong?"